Housing and lenses for G12

[Cumbo]

I'm new to this forum and decided to register, since I'm totally lost, confused, frustrated and am getting a huge headache trying to decide what to get for my new camera.

First of all, I had a Canon Digital Ixus 110 IS + Canon WP-DC32 housing before and dove ~100 dives with it. I shot from a distance, macro and also HD video with it. That's what I intend to do with the G12 as well.

So, I have thought about getting "a full setup" for the camera (housing, tray, arms(s), and strobe(s)). At this point, I am unsure whether I should get a wideangle dry or wet lens and/or macro lens (or lenses, stacked). Should I start by choosing the lens(es) and after that, find a suitable housing? Is there a lens, that can do wideangle as well as macro (at least as close as the camera itself with no lenses attached and hopefully even closer/more accurate). I want to find a solution with which I don't find myself in a situation soon, that I cannot get a lens/strobe I need for it. Thus (without going more into strobe issues), the housing should preferably be one, that can utilise the hotshoe of the camera, unless you think another way of using strobe/strobes is better.

I've read this forum until page 8-9 and all the threads that might've helped me, and still don't have my answers. So can you please, please help me?

I have to add, that weight is somewhat of an issue, as I travel with the gear.

 

[slowhands]

Choice of camera and housing can become a religious debate. People tend to love the camera they have, and mistrust the unfamiliar. Dealers sometimes upsell, when all a diver needs is basic set. So it's hard to get a recommendation without baggage.

I'll offer mine, from the "Keep it simple" school. First, a little about the hotshoe. Most inexpensive cameras don't have one. Strobe makers have adapted, making strobes that work perfectly well with a fiber optic connector to the camera. This is lighter, cheaper, and more reliable. Good strobes like the Inon S2000 and Sea&Sea YS-01 work fine with fiber. So don't worry about the hotshoe, unless you happen to have strobes that require it.

Canon makes two great point and shoot cameras which suit underwater use. (My criteria: Must shoot RAW, must have custom white balance, must close focus, must shoot wide, and must allow manual operation.) The G12 and the smaller S95 are the two. They are like fraternal twins, very similar in many ways with the same sensor, same processor, but different lenses, different size, cost and mechanical controls.

The S95 is cheaper and smaller, lacks hotshoe, but has a lens that is better in some ways than the G12 lens for underwater use. In a nutshell, the lens allows easier use of wide angle wet lenses, which many people like. The G12 feels like a Leica camera, it has all the bells and whistles a pro could want, and it can close focus a little better than the S95. But because of how the lens moves inside the housing to allow a 5x zoom, it is farther back than optimum in the wide position, which makes it challenging to adapt to wide angle wet lenses. In practice, both work well underwater but the S95 is often preferred for wide angle use, for compact size and for lower system price.

You should not consider the camera without considering choice of housings. There are many. Canon, Ikelite, Fisheye and RecSea make them. The good news is you have a lot of good choices, the bad news is it's confusing trying to pick the best. I'll just give my quick thoughts on the S95 housings.

At the low cost end, Canon rocks. Their housing is the smallest and least expensive. But it may be subject to nuisance leaks due to "mold release lines", and some say the button springs get weak over time so they fail to spring back at depth. The "mold release" issue is simple to cure, search the board for the past info on this. The spring issue shows up after a couple years of heavy use, so if you use a camera that much, consider moving up. The Canon housing lacks a 67mm thread on its port, so to add lenses you need a special adapter from Dyron which converts it ($65). Still, for small size and low cost the Canon is a popular choice.

Ikelite makes a good housing which has 67mm threads on the port. Larger and more expensive, it seems a little more rugged than the Canon.

Both of the lower priced housings lack a control for the rear dial of the camera. For some people this is a show stopper, for others it's a minor nuisance because there is an easy workaround. But that leads us to the Fisheye and RecSea housings which do have the rear dial control.

These cost about 4x the price of the Canon housing, and are much more durable and professional feeling. Some differences: The Fisheye comes with a built in 52mm threaded port for adding wet lenses. The RecSea requires a $190 adapter for adding wet lenses. The position of the zoom knob varies. On the FIX, it it is above and to the right of the lens; on the RecSea, it is below and left of the lens. This means right hand versus left hand operation, which may matter to some people. Because of cost, I'd suggest handling both if you can. It's expensive to pick one that later you just don't like and then have to exchange it.

You'll note that I have not mentioned the G12. It's popular too, I see a lot when I dive. I'll admit to a bias toward the S95. I had both the predecessor S90 and G11 for a while, and chose the S90 because it did everything I wanted with lower cost and smaller size. But the same 4 makers build good housings for the G12 if you believe that's the one for you. I suspect that many of the same comments apply to the G12 housings, so I'll not say more.

That's my quick digest. I'm sure I've oversimplified, but I hope this gets you started in the right direction.

 

[hilton]

Thanks Slowhands.

You have answered a lot of questions which I had as well.
It's hard to find such informative answers sometimes.

 

[Cumbo]

First of all, thanks for taking the time to write a thorough response. It is highly appreciated! And even though my questions might still continue to seem stupid, let me assure you that I've spent hours and hours trying to figure all this stuff out. It is all very confusing, as you stated, too.

Choice of camera and housing can become a religious debate. People tend to love the camera they have, and mistrust the unfamiliar. Dealers sometimes upsell, when all a diver needs is basic set. So it's hard to get a recommendation without baggage.

I'll offer mine, from the "Keep it simple" school. First, a little about the hotshoe. Most inexpensive cameras don't have one. Strobe makers have adapted, making strobes that work perfectly well with a fiber optic connector to the camera. This is lighter, cheaper, and more reliable. Good strobes like the Inon S2000 and Sea&Sea YS-01 work fine with fiber. So don't worry about the hotshoe, unless you happen to have strobes that require it.

-Is there a benefit to using the hotshoe?
-The internal flash has to be used in any case to fire the strobe, am I right?
-Does the optical cabel firing use the preflash (I understand this is good) or other means to estimate the flash needed and adjust power accordingly (=TTL?)? How about the hotshoe system? Or is TTL a function of a strobe, that may be used with either the eletrical cable or the optical one, depending on what the strobe/housing take?

At the low cost end, Canon rocks. Their housing is the smallest and least expensive. But it may be subject to nuisance leaks due to "mold release lines", and some say the button springs get weak over time so they fail to spring back at depth. The "mold release" issue is simple to cure, search the board for the past info on this. The spring issue shows up after a couple years of heavy use, so if you use a camera that much, consider moving up. The Canon housing lacks a 67mm thread on its port, so to add lenses you need a special adapter from Dyron which converts it ($65). Still, for small size and low cost the Canon is a popular choice.

As I said, I had Canon housing before as my first one, and it was ok. It did what it needed to do. For me, I see price and weight (~400-500 grams) and great pros for the Canon housing. What makes me doubt buying it, is the lack of hotshoe, lack of a place to connect the optical cable, lack of direct front wheel control (I understand it is possible to use the controls in another way with the Canon housing?) and (maybe most importantly) lack of lenses available. Other than that, Canon has worked fine for me in the past so.

Ikelite makes a good housing which has 67mm threads on the port. Larger and more expensive, it seems a little more rugged than the Canon.

Both of the lower priced housings lack a control for the rear dial of the camera. For some people this is a show stopper, for others it's a minor nuisance because there is an easy workaround.

As I see it, Ikelite is more expensive than Canon, but is it worth it? One factor, which I see as a great negative one, is the WEIGHT. 2.7 kilos (incl. the camera)! It also looks HUGE. On the other hand, I've read that you can install a short port on it (should be good?) and it takes a lot of lenses (e.g. Inon) I didn't know of the lack of rear dial control. Glad you mentioned that! It also keeps popping up on the forums, that is has TTL.

But that leads us to the Fisheye and RecSea housings which do have the rear dial control.

These cost about 4x the price of the Canon housing, and are much more durable and professional feeling. Some differences: The Fisheye comes with a built in 52mm threaded port for adding wet lenses. The RecSea requires a $190 adapter for adding wet lenses. The position of the zoom knob varies. On the FIX, it it is above and to the right of the lens; on the RecSea, it is below and left of the lens. This means right hand versus left hand operation, which may matter to some people. Because of cost, I'd suggest handling both if you can. It's expensive to pick one that later you just don't like and then have to exchange it.

I haven't seen a lot of differences between FIX and RecSea. FIX is 797 grams and RecSea is 790g. They are both really expensive, but seem like the "only" choices for me given the reasons above. Unfortunaly, I cannot handle them prioir to buying, because we don't have them in the local shops here in Finland, so accurate background checks will have to suffice.

You mentioned FIX to have a 52 mm threaded port.
-Does this mean I will have to unscrew the original square-like thingy on the housing and replace it with another one?
-Does using this housing rule out some super-über lenses (I've seen a lot of talk about Inon wideangle lenses etc.)?
-Is there a lens that can do both wideangle and macro (at least as accurate and hopefully more than the camera in a normal housing without any lens)?

 

[Cumbo]

Okay, I'll try to keep it shorter and more simple. Hopefully, someone can answer these!

1. Is there a benefit to using the hotshoe?
2. Is there a way of using strobes (in the auto-adjusting more, TTL(?)) without firing the internal flash?
3. How does one adjust aperture and shutter with Canon WP-DC32?
4. Is there a lens that can do both wideangle and macro (at least as accurate and hopefully more than the camera in a normal housing without any lens)?
5. Is there a short(er) port available for FIX G12 housing (on which wet lenses migth be added)?

 

[charlesml3]

Well yea.

The benefit of using the hotshoe is you get TTL metering. The G12 gives you this where the S95 doesn't.

When you're cabled up for TTL using the hotshoe on the G12, the internal flash is disabled. There's no need to block it or anything. It just won't fire (as it shouldn't).

 

[Gilligan]

Okay, I'll try to keep it shorter and more simple. Hopefully, someone can answer these!

1. Is there a benefit to using the hotshoe?
2. Is there a way of using strobes (in the auto-adjusting more, TTL(?)) without firing the internal flash?
3. How does one adjust aperture and shutter with Canon WP-DC32?
4. Is there a lens that can do both wideangle and macro (at least as accurate and hopefully more than the camera in a normal housing without any lens)?
5. Is there a short(er) port available for FIX G12 housing (on which wet lenses migth be added)?

1. More precise (true) TTL. Requires more expensive housing. Fiber optic fired strobes are somewhat simulated TTL. Some are completely manual (no F stop settings).
2. As already stated cable TTL from the hotshoe prevents the camera's strobe from firing. Fiber optic cable fired strobes require a device to block the camera's strobe from being in the photo unless the housing is designed to accept the fiber optic cable and by design blocks the camera's strobe. The camera's strobe has to fire to trigger a fiber optic slave strobe.
3. See how to change F stops and Shutter speeds on a Canon G12 (WP-DC34) housing HERE
4. You need two separate wet-mount lenses for WAL and Macro and I personally don't advise attaching the WAL to a Canon housing.
5. Don't know that answer.

 

[flareside]

Cumbo:

Please take a look at the Inon lenses and the Inon mount bracket for the Canon S95 housing. The bayonet mount lenses are by far the easiest to deal with underwater when you want to switch from wide to macro. The mount bracket system also has provisions to take care of the optical flash cord attachment. And the price difference between the Canon and Fix housings is enough to cover the cost of the mount, the optical cable, and an Inon wide angle lens.

If you are considering the G12 with the Fix housing, have you considered that you can have an Oly E-PL1 and the housing with a Zen dome for about the same price? (Obviously I can't speak for the prices in Finland, but that is certainly the case in the US)

Finally, regarding the issue of hot shoe attachment, was there a specific flash that you were considering that offers hot shoe attachment?

And by the way, Welcome to the forum.

 

[Cumbo]

2. As already stated cable TTL from the hotshoe prevents the camera's strobe from firing. Fiber optic cable fired strobes require a device to block the camera's strobe from being in the photo unless the housing is designed to accept the fiber optic cable and by design blocks the camera's strobe. The camera's strobe has to fire to trigger a fiber optic slave strobe.

This sounds like an important feature as doing multiple dives per day puts the camera battery life to test. Previously with my Canon Digital Ixus 110 IS (same as Powershot SD 960 in the US), I could use one battery for approx. 2 dives. Using the internal flash naturally drains the camera battery quite fast.

4. You need two separate wet-mount lenses for WAL and Macro and I personally don't advise attaching the WAL to a Canon housing.

This is one of the reasons why I've started leaning towards Fisheye FIX G12. Another thing is accessing the dials, because I think there's going to be a lot of dial turning involved (at least for a while at first), because I want to get accustomed to using full manual mode. Also, the housing has TTL which sounds nice. Lastly, I would probably like to change to Fisheye housing default port for a shorter one. This would allow me to use 67 mm thread lenses and, in addition, would allow me to get closer to the subject in macro mode. When using the Canon housing the subject is left soooo far away because of the length of the housing. Seems sad, given that the camera can focus @ 1 cm with macro. Please correct me, if this option does not work somehow.

 

[Cumbo]

Please take a look at the Inon lenses and the Inon mount bracket for the Canon S95 housing. The bayonet mount lenses are by far the easiest to deal with underwater when you want to switch from wide to macro. The mount bracket system also has provisions to take care of the optical flash cord attachment. And the price difference between the Canon and Fix housings is enough to cover the cost of the mount, the optical cable, and an Inon wide angle lens.

If you are considering the G12 with the Fix housing, have you considered that you can have an Oly E-PL1 and the housing with a Zen dome for about the same price? (Obviously I can't speak for the prices in Finland, but that is certainly the case in the US)

The bayonet mounts (28, 28AD or whatever they were) sound really tempting, but can I get another adapter to fit them on this port or is this wise at all? As for the prices, it is funny indeed, that camera's seem to cost a fraction of the other underwater camera equipment bought. It's really hard for me (too) to justify spending $3000 on equipment, but it's a hobby as any else. I've tried not to think about it that way, because then I'd be left having no camera equipment at all. :blinking:

Finally, regarding the issue of hot shoe attachment, was there a specific flash that you were considering that offers hot shoe attachment?

I was already leaning towards the Inon S-2000 due to its light weight (as I mentioned, the gear goes with me on my trips) and value for money, but getting clarification to the TTL issue I am currently thinking about getting Inon Z-240 Type 4 which costs a bit more, but would help save camera battery. Another thing is, that it is said to have "high-intensity focus/aiming light". I think this might be useful, not only for focusing, but also on night dives. Also, the review says good things, too.

And by the way, Welcome to the forum.

Thanks and thanks for the help!