Bulletproof reg with a design that's been around forever?

[halocline]

Like breathing through a brick, however. That's the problem with many of the old, reliable designs: they don't suck. At least not nearly as well as people would like.

That's total nonsense, the best breathing regulator I have ever used is an old scubapro pilot, followed closely by the air 1 and D300; all old regs. While the 109 (upgraded to balanced) is not quite the effortless breather as the coaxial valve regs were, it's certainly on par with the G250, and there are very few current 2nd stages that outperform that, at any price. Similarly, the old BP first stages like the MK5 are indistinguishable from the highest performing new 1st stages in terms of real-world, noticeable breathing performance.

In short, regulators have simply not improved over the last few decades, and thus the constant hype-machine and useless features that the dive gear industry keeps pumping out.

 

[SDAnderson]

That's total nonsense, the best breathing regulator I have ever used is an old scubapro pilot, followed closely by the air 1 and D300; all old regs. While the 109 (upgraded to balanced) is not quite the effortless breather as the coaxial valve regs were, it's certainly on par with the G250, and there are very few current 2nd stages that outperform that, at any price. Similarly, the old BP first stages like the MK5 are indistinguishable from the highest performing new 1st stages in terms of real-world, noticeable breathing performance.

In short, regulators have simply not improved over the last few decades, and thus the constant hype-machine and useless features that the dive gear industry keeps pumping out.

I'm going to pick on two of your picks by way of illustration of the hazards of the vintage fetish:

• The ScubaPro Pilot was indeed a great breathing regulator. It was also a service nightmare - nobody would call it anything remotely close to bulletproof. It belongs in the dustbin of history - fun to play with (for some) but almost any regulator made today would deserve a better overall rating.
• The ScubaPro MK2 is a great design but only if upgraded. Remember the old axiom about anything that comes before the "but" in a sentence isn't true? Truly a bulletproof design, the performance characteristics of the MK2 are third rate when measured against today's standards. Their unbalanced design means below 100 feet they breathe hard as heck and their unsealed design means they shouldn't be used in cold or dirty water. There are lots of better choices out there.

Regulator development has often been driven by hype instead of technology but over the years the technology has improved. Winnowing the chaff from the worthwhile requires a jaundiced eye, that same skeptical outlook should be applied to the vintage stuff as well. Sometimes things stick around forever not because they're better but because they have a better fan club.

Personally, I have a soft spot in my heart for the Cousteau/SEA and the MK20 1st stages and I do love the Balanced/Adjustable 109 2nds. If you've got the time to hunt for them and the knowledge and skills to service them, they're completely...adequate. Divers just starting out would be better off with a Titan or a MK25 and the V250. Or any of a dozen other modern regulators with a better combination of performance, reliability, cost and ease of service.

Just my .25. (That's .02, adjusted for inflation. :depressed

 

[Fishpie]

Different people will have a different interpretation of what "bulletproof" means in a regulator.

For my money a bulletproof reg will be physically tough and be able to work to specs between services.
My winner would be the toughest reg that can be put away wet, stored in horrendous conditions and work for the longest without servicing.


Finding a design that has "been around for years" is a little less subjective.

First stages.
There are flow-by unbalanced pistons.....Scubapro MK2, USD Aquarius
Balanced pistons....Scubapro MK5
Balanced diaphragms.....USD Conshelf

Second stages.
Classic downstream.....USD 2nd's and Scubapro 190,109,108.
Balanced......Scubapro G250....the BA is older but the G250 has a longer history (have to omit the Pilot/D series since there isn't an equivalent around today)
(honorable mention to Poseidon Thor)

There are other reg designs but, for me, while they may be very good regs, they either haven't been "around for years" or aren't "bulletproof"

The list is limited to Aqualung and Scubapro since they are the oldest companies and they still support their older regs.

So what is the toughest reg?
Metal over plastic 2nd stages......The USDivers is tougher than the Scubapro.
Downstream over balanced since there are fewer o rings.

1st stages....turret regs aren't as tough as non turret and diaphragm regs will withstand poor storage and long service intervals better than piston regs.

After all this, the winner is ........ Conshelf 14.

(the Mares MR12 III could also be a contender since the 1st stage is so similar to the Conshelf, the 2nd is metal but the second stage seat is not quite as durable as the USD)

 

[halocline]

I'm going to pick on two of your picks by way of illustration of the hazards of the vintage fetish:

• The ScubaPro Pilot was indeed a great breathing regulator. It was also a service nightmare - nobody would call it anything remotely close to bulletproof. It belongs in the dustbin of history - fun to play with (for some) but almost any regulator made today would deserve a better overall rating.
• The ScubaPro MK2 is a great design but only if upgraded. Remember the old axiom about anything that comes before the "but" in a sentence isn't true? Truly a bulletproof design, the performance characteristics of the MK2 are third rate when measured against today's standards. Their unbalanced design means below 100 feet they breathe hard as heck and their unsealed design means they shouldn't be used in cold or dirty water. There are lots of better choices out there.

• 
  
  I listed the pilot because in an earlier post you mentioned that the old, reliable designs breathe like a rock. It's true that the pilot is more complicated to service, but hardly a "nightmare" if you know what you're doing. And, they are easily converted to a coaxial valve, which makes servicing them very similar to the D series regs. I have heard a "certified" SP tech complain about how difficult the D series are to service, but to me that says much more about the tech's abilities than it does about the regulator.
  
  Your comment about the MK2 is simply wrong. Balancing the first stage has nothing to do with it's performance at depth; I believe you're confusing balancing with depth compensating. The MK2 1st stage does supply lower IP to the 2nd stage as the tank empties, so with an unbalanced 2nd stage, it will breathe harder as the tank goes below 500 PSI. It is also true that the MK2 does not have the same flow specs as higher performance 1sts, but at about 100 SCFM it still flows FAR more than any 2nd stage can handle; and more than a typical tank valve will flow.
  
  You mention the MK25 and G250V as better choices than the older MK20 and balanced adjustable in terms of "performance, cost, reliability, and ease of service" but that's total nonsense. The MK25 is simply a slightly more complex MK20, and the G250V is simply a newer version (parts compatible) of the original G250, which itself is basically a plastic cased version of the balanced adjustable. The new regs do not perform better (in terms of breathing and longevity between service), they certainly cost a lot more, cannot possibly be more reliable, because they're simply more complex versions of the same design, and are actually slightly more trouble to service.
  
  There is one case in which I'll agree about the MK25 vs MK20; the newer composite piston locks up better than some of the MK20 pistons, particularly that brass tipped creeper they used for a while. So you just replace the piston for about $50. I'll also agree that the newer seats and poppets are generally better, but those are simply included in any routine service.
  
  It has nothing to do with "vintage fetish", the older regulators are just better IMO, and WAY less expensive.

 

[SDAnderson]

Yadda, yadda.

Fortunately, we don't have to agree.

Peace, out.

 

[halocline]

Maybe its more like this one:
YouTube - Monty Python - Argument Clinic

 

[Ragnar]

Apeks DS4/TX50.

 

[Medicdiver0125]

Posiedon is finiky but bullet proof. I own two Odin first stage and jet stream second stages. I have never had. Problem getting them serviced. As a matter of fact up here in MI I see slot of people that swear by them. I also have a apeks xtx 200 with a fsr first stage and that is a great reg as well. A new diver might not like the posiedon due to purge pressure but I still think it is one of the best out there. That is just my opinion. It seem like slot of people like sp regs, I guess I will have to try one out soon.

 

[herman]

Posiedon is finiky but bullet proof. I own two Odin first stage and jet stream second stages. I have never had. Problem getting them serviced. As a matter of fact up here in MI I see slot of people that swear by them. I also have a apeks xtx 200 with a fsr first stage and that is a great reg as well. A new diver might not like the posiedon due to purge pressure but I still think it is one of the best out there. That is just my opinion. It seem like slot of people like sp regs, I guess I will have to try one out soon.

IMO, you can't use finiky and bulletproof in the same sentence. The very fact it's finiky makes it a reg you don't want when you have to rely on it in out of the way places. The design has stood the test of time and has a good rep but it also has a rep of being difficult to service properly and there are expensive, hard to find parts in it. Both of which remove it from the bulletproof list, esp when you compair it to regs like the SP MK-2 that use only common orings and a HP seat that can be made in the field with simple tools.

 

[offthewall1]

Like breathing through a brick, however. That's the problem with many of the old, reliable designs: they don't suck. At least not nearly as well as people would like.

Actually The SP MK2 R190 breathes much better than many of the much more expensive models from Atomic, Dive Rite, Apeks etc... is much better constructed and needs little if any maintenance. For me, a regulator must breathe well in all positions (due to the nature of my work,) and only one other reg has outperformed the MK2 R190 in all positions - the Cressi MC9 Ellipse SC. The only reason I don't recommend the Cressi to this poster is because I'm not convinced the Cressi is going to be as durable over time and it costs about $150 - $200 more than a MK2 R190... in essence, double the price.

When I travel on vacation I dive with a MK25 S600... just because I wanted a new toy... but to be honest, the best regulator I ever had for pure breathing ease and comfort was the MK 25 with the
G250HP 2nd stage. Again an expensive proposition for someone looking for inexpensive. The newer models are also not as robust as the older models - especially the materials used to make the tank knob... if you're not careful - and drop them - they will crack... the older models you could take a hammer to and not break them.