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Spiegel Grove Advice for an Inexperienced Diver
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Most of the time, pole position is the superstructure and most dive boats will be looking to tie into these mooring balls. There are several mooring balls on the wreck with the most tricky being a crossover line on the starboard side. Midway to the wreck the line splits with one end going to the wreck and the other going to the sand. The moorings are chosen depending upon the experience level of the divers and which balls are free and don't already have a boat tied to them. Others lead to such things as the bow at 90 or the cranes at 50 - 60 feet.
When it comes to diving large wrecks don't contemplate trying to see the whole thing in one dive. The size of the Spiegel Grove would require several dives just to give a cursory view of the exterior. Confine your dive to an area around your descent/ascent line. The current can be deceiving. You may not really notice it like a Cozumel drift, but when you try to return to your ascent line you'll be working hard. Gas goes fast and hard work and nitrox increases the risk of CNS oxtox.
Reserve plenty of gas for safety. For a new Grove diver, modifying a 1/6 gas rule might be safer. In an AL80 use 500 psi to descend and explore, 500 psi to return to your starting point, look around at marine life near your ascent line for 500 psi and leave the bottom with 1500 psi in your tank. Hiring a guide is no guarantee that you won't be lead on a tour that returns you with too little ascent gas. A guide would definitely be a good idea, but many instructors and DM's know little about safe gas planning at many resorts. In Key Largo, I'd recommend Silent World Dive Center and Horizon Divers or Casey at Rainbow Reef. Make sure to discuss a rock bottom ascent gas with the guide. "Being back on board the boat with 500 psi," is okay for shallow reefs, but has no business in deeper diving.
Watch your depth. The sand at the props is about 144 feet. The shallower you dive the more time and gas you will have. It's amazing what you'll see if you hang out and really look around a rather small area. You'll probably get a few large fish checking you out as well as being able to see a lot of interesting creatures.
Don't be afraid to discuss the dive with the crew and get their advice regarding where you should explore once you tie into the wreck. Keep the dive plan simple and the distance traveled short for a first dive. Conditions may change AND THEY DO while you are underwater. Chris Brown, the owner of Silent World, and I were teaching similar tech classes with a student each in May. We entered the water with little to no current from the crossover just behind the superstructure. After we exited separate penetrations into the wreck near the bow, we found ourselves and our students having to deal with a super strong current to return. Both of us thought we were going to have to give up on the idea of making it home and were going to have to pick a different line to return to the surface than the one where the boat was tied. We both made it with bingo gas and at bingo time.
As an AOW diver, you should be trained for a 130 foot deep dive and as a nitrox diver you should have an understanding of dive planning. A wreck this size is like a wall dive. You can go deeper and work your way up to 50 - 60 feet before returning on a line. You often see a lot while on the ascent lines on the Grove so it's not like the dive is over once you clear the wreck. It's not over from a challenge standpoint nor is it boring. Keep an eye on your gas, your gauge or computer, your buddy and out into the water column for some pelagic marine life.
If you decide that you are ready then keep in mind that cave & tech divers have a saying that, "Anyone can call a dive at any time for any reason." If the dive feels too big for you at the computer, on the boat, in the water, on the line or on the wreck itself, thumb it and go home. It will be waiting for you next time.
When it comes to diving large wrecks don't contemplate trying to see the whole thing in one dive. The size of the Spiegel Grove would require several dives just to give a cursory view of the exterior. Confine your dive to an area around your descent/ascent line. The current can be deceiving. You may not really notice it like a Cozumel drift, but when you try to return to your ascent line you'll be working hard. Gas goes fast and hard work and nitrox increases the risk of CNS oxtox.
Reserve plenty of gas for safety. For a new Grove diver, modifying a 1/6 gas rule might be safer. In an AL80 use 500 psi to descend and explore, 500 psi to return to your starting point, look around at marine life near your ascent line for 500 psi and leave the bottom with 1500 psi in your tank. Hiring a guide is no guarantee that you won't be lead on a tour that returns you with too little ascent gas. A guide would definitely be a good idea, but many instructors and DM's know little about safe gas planning at many resorts. In Key Largo, I'd recommend Silent World Dive Center and Horizon Divers or Casey at Rainbow Reef. Make sure to discuss a rock bottom ascent gas with the guide. "Being back on board the boat with 500 psi," is okay for shallow reefs, but has no business in deeper diving.
Watch your depth. The sand at the props is about 144 feet. The shallower you dive the more time and gas you will have. It's amazing what you'll see if you hang out and really look around a rather small area. You'll probably get a few large fish checking you out as well as being able to see a lot of interesting creatures.
Don't be afraid to discuss the dive with the crew and get their advice regarding where you should explore once you tie into the wreck. Keep the dive plan simple and the distance traveled short for a first dive. Conditions may change AND THEY DO while you are underwater. Chris Brown, the owner of Silent World, and I were teaching similar tech classes with a student each in May. We entered the water with little to no current from the crossover just behind the superstructure. After we exited separate penetrations into the wreck near the bow, we found ourselves and our students having to deal with a super strong current to return. Both of us thought we were going to have to give up on the idea of making it home and were going to have to pick a different line to return to the surface than the one where the boat was tied. We both made it with bingo gas and at bingo time.
As an AOW diver, you should be trained for a 130 foot deep dive and as a nitrox diver you should have an understanding of dive planning. A wreck this size is like a wall dive. You can go deeper and work your way up to 50 - 60 feet before returning on a line. You often see a lot while on the ascent lines on the Grove so it's not like the dive is over once you clear the wreck. It's not over from a challenge standpoint nor is it boring. Keep an eye on your gas, your gauge or computer, your buddy and out into the water column for some pelagic marine life.
If you decide that you are ready then keep in mind that cave & tech divers have a saying that, "Anyone can call a dive at any time for any reason." If the dive feels too big for you at the computer, on the boat, in the water, on the line or on the wreck itself, thumb it and go home. It will be waiting for you next time.
OP
CriticalMass
Contributor
Valuable information. Exactly what I wanted. I think you've nailed it, and I truly appreciate the time you took to post. The pre-dive briefing woule obviously address some of this, but I'll have a SMB and and 80' reel with me if I need to use them to help the boat find me when I surface, all else failing.
I'm totally prepared to do this dive at 75-90 ft, consistent with what I've dived many times in the past. Not an issue. Someone else said, "no need to get into the sand". I agree.
Goes without saying.
Once again, thanks for your quality reply to my question. I do appreciate it.
The current is usually ripping. The ascent from safety stop to the boat and then getting into the boat is lots like riding a bronco with a really big burr under his saddle. It is a good dive. It is also fairly safe if you follow common sense and follow the DM. If you do not have one, pay for one. There are plenty of other dives in the Keys that are less stressful and just as fun.
OP
CriticalMass
Contributor
This trip is not for stress, it's for fun. Info from this discussion leads me to think the best idea would be to place my vote for other dive sites - there are plenty, as you say.
The current in Cozumel can vary tremendously.
Barracuda Reef is a site there that many operators will not even schedule because they feel the current is too dangerous. The first time I was on it, the current was so mild that we could actually swim against it with ease to look at interesting sights we had missed while gently drifting. The second time I dived it we had to work with everything we had to keep from getting blown off the reef.
LynnB
Contributor
We did the speigel grove a couple of weeks ago... surprinsingly the current wasn't bad. We did our dives with KLSS and they do have a dm in the water. He knows the ship which is great...
Duane is an awesome ship and we like it even better than Spiegel...One with us did that as her dive for AOW... we were lucky that the current was minimum.. have done it before where yes as someone said. We were like a flag flying in the wind....hanging on to the line.
We did nitrox and depth on both were around 100...
Have fun..
Duane is an awesome ship and we like it even better than Spiegel...One with us did that as her dive for AOW... we were lucky that the current was minimum.. have done it before where yes as someone said. We were like a flag flying in the wind....hanging on to the line.
We did nitrox and depth on both were around 100...
Have fun..
I took the Spiegel Grove Research Diver PADI certification class from Horizon Divers in June of 2011. We dove the Spiegel Grove twice in the afternoon and then the Duane once the next morning. It was an excellent experience and I recommend it. The current was tough but not as bad as when I dove the Spiegel Grove in March of 2011 when my mask was ripped off twice while ascending. We had 7 people stacked around 15 feet for the 3 minute stop which was interesting.
On the Spiegel Grove, we were attached to the #7 mooring buoy, port side behind the wheelhouse. We descended through a cutout to the next deck then along the deck before making a 180 under the overhang in front of the cranes. We exited through a passageway out to the starboard side of the ship and then forward and up to the wheelhouse. Then through a passageway in the middle of the wheelhouse to a T where we made a right and ended up back at the mooring buoy. Total depth 105 feet, total time 24 minutes on air.
The second dive we didn't go as deep, still on #7 we entered a passageway that contained two Goliath Groupers, each over 450 pounds. One moved when I got near but the other stood his ground so I had to back out and ascend through a vent to above the wheelhouse and then cross to the starboard side. We went aft to the two cranes. Since one was in the sand for two years because the Spiegel Grove sank on its starboard side, one of the cranes has two years more growth on it than the other. The crane returned to its cradle when Hurricane Dennis righted the Spiegel Grove. We crossed over the well between cranes and then back up to #7. Total time, 25 minutes on air and max depth 88 feet.
On the Duane on the next day, we descended on the #3 which is attached to the stern at 105 feet. We had to stay below the gunwales on the main deck so that we weren't swept off the ship. We went mid ship and crossed from starboard to port through the engineers workroom swim through. Then up to the mast and then let the current carry us back to the mooring line. Total time, 22 minutes on air and max depth 105 feet.
I have AOW and nitrox certification. I don't think I would have made the dives without a guide familiar with the ships. Mike Ryan, from Horizon Divers, took me. He has 563 dives on the Spiegel and an uncounted number on the Duane. My recommendation, take the specialty class or get a guide that is familiar with the ships.
On the Spiegel Grove, we were attached to the #7 mooring buoy, port side behind the wheelhouse. We descended through a cutout to the next deck then along the deck before making a 180 under the overhang in front of the cranes. We exited through a passageway out to the starboard side of the ship and then forward and up to the wheelhouse. Then through a passageway in the middle of the wheelhouse to a T where we made a right and ended up back at the mooring buoy. Total depth 105 feet, total time 24 minutes on air.
The second dive we didn't go as deep, still on #7 we entered a passageway that contained two Goliath Groupers, each over 450 pounds. One moved when I got near but the other stood his ground so I had to back out and ascend through a vent to above the wheelhouse and then cross to the starboard side. We went aft to the two cranes. Since one was in the sand for two years because the Spiegel Grove sank on its starboard side, one of the cranes has two years more growth on it than the other. The crane returned to its cradle when Hurricane Dennis righted the Spiegel Grove. We crossed over the well between cranes and then back up to #7. Total time, 25 minutes on air and max depth 88 feet.
On the Duane on the next day, we descended on the #3 which is attached to the stern at 105 feet. We had to stay below the gunwales on the main deck so that we weren't swept off the ship. We went mid ship and crossed from starboard to port through the engineers workroom swim through. Then up to the mast and then let the current carry us back to the mooring line. Total time, 22 minutes on air and max depth 105 feet.
I have AOW and nitrox certification. I don't think I would have made the dives without a guide familiar with the ships. Mike Ryan, from Horizon Divers, took me. He has 563 dives on the Spiegel and an uncounted number on the Duane. My recommendation, take the specialty class or get a guide that is familiar with the ships.
I agree with most here -- it's certainly an advanced dive. And the current is unpredictable.
That being said, with your 50-99 dives, AOW cert (which hopefully means you've been to these depths), and Nitrox, I don't personally believe you can't do the Spiegel safely.
While it's true the current can kick up, there are few places where you can't get a handhold if necessary (which reminds me -- wear gloves if you go -- accidentally grabbing a fistful of fire coral, which does grow there, is not fun). I agree with whomever said it can get crowded at your 15ft. SS. I've seen more and more divers bring short jon lines, and hang off from the group.
The 130+ feet to the sand isn't a problem, since you'll want to stay at 90 ft or less -- most to see there, like the turrets, giant spools, light penetrations, etc. The wheelhouse is even shallower.
It's a beautiful wreck, and literally breathtaking as you descend onto it. Typically good marine life (at least the times I've been there), including schools of barracuda, and one or two giant grouper.
I actually personally prefer the local reefs in Largo: Molasses, Elbow, etc. (simply more bottom time), however, I don't at all regret my dives on the Spiegel...
Good luck, dive safe...
That being said, with your 50-99 dives, AOW cert (which hopefully means you've been to these depths), and Nitrox, I don't personally believe you can't do the Spiegel safely.
While it's true the current can kick up, there are few places where you can't get a handhold if necessary (which reminds me -- wear gloves if you go -- accidentally grabbing a fistful of fire coral, which does grow there, is not fun). I agree with whomever said it can get crowded at your 15ft. SS. I've seen more and more divers bring short jon lines, and hang off from the group.
The 130+ feet to the sand isn't a problem, since you'll want to stay at 90 ft or less -- most to see there, like the turrets, giant spools, light penetrations, etc. The wheelhouse is even shallower.
It's a beautiful wreck, and literally breathtaking as you descend onto it. Typically good marine life (at least the times I've been there), including schools of barracuda, and one or two giant grouper.
I actually personally prefer the local reefs in Largo: Molasses, Elbow, etc. (simply more bottom time), however, I don't at all regret my dives on the Spiegel...
Good luck, dive safe...
bilsant
Contributor
I won't presume to give advice. Those posting before me have done it very well. Scubadada's profile for this dive is almost exactly the same as my experiences.
The Grove is a beautiful dive (though I like the Duane a wee bit better). The descriptions you have are accurate, and I have no reason to doubt your skill and abilities to handle an advanced dive. If the tone of some of these posts seems a bit strident, I'm guessing it may be in part because you're asking for opinions from folks with hundreds of dives who are concerned that your response seemed a wee bit overconfident about a dive that they treat with great respect. The Grove and Duane can be 100 ft viz, warm temps, and no current...but they can also be as uncomfortably challenging as anything you'll find elsewhere.
Everyone here wishes you nothing less than a wonderful and safe experience.
The Grove is a beautiful dive (though I like the Duane a wee bit better). The descriptions you have are accurate, and I have no reason to doubt your skill and abilities to handle an advanced dive. If the tone of some of these posts seems a bit strident, I'm guessing it may be in part because you're asking for opinions from folks with hundreds of dives who are concerned that your response seemed a wee bit overconfident about a dive that they treat with great respect. The Grove and Duane can be 100 ft viz, warm temps, and no current...but they can also be as uncomfortably challenging as anything you'll find elsewhere.
Everyone here wishes you nothing less than a wonderful and safe experience.
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