PSA for those doing vacation Guided Boat Dives

[danvolker]

Dive one: 30M dive to a well traveled wreck. ABT 32 minutes(multi-level). Dive two: 10-12M dive ABT 52 minutes. All data is approximate as I do not have my dive computer or log book sitting in front of me.

Ana:

I'm not sure why you think it's difficult or important to know the particulars of the dives in this case. I'm happy to provide them, my original point of the post was to encourage people not to blow off their dive guides when it comes to underwater signals, hence why I did not include much data, in fact I only added in the ABT for the second dive because I was reading between the lines on your first or second post that they may have felt they were getting "ripped off" as far as their dive time.

I think you are doing your dive partners (insta-buddies) a service by letting them know ahead of time you don't buddy dive. I am of the opinion that diving is an activity people are welcome to pursue solo, and if a dive boat or dive operation is okay with you going off on your own during a boat/guided dive that is a decision between you and them -- and I honestly hope you can find operations that give their divers that much freedom. Out here on Oahu most dives are group dives and it is rare to be allowed to dive your own profile. I am against this practice and had I not gotten a heads up about these two particular muppets and then watched them struggle on the first dive I wouldn't have insisted on them staying close. I think safer divers are those who can plan and execute their own dives. Most operations out here are a little gun shy as most of our clients are once a decade vacation divers whose egos write checks their skills can't cash.

One particular incident that happened a week ago (not to me thank the gods) illustrates this: a diver who was low on air decided to head to the surface by ditching all of his gear at 70 feet and swimming like hell for the surface. Luckily he was uninjured, but his dive guide was a mess -- the DG couldn't get to him in time. While something this extreme is rare the fact is most dive pros out here see more stupid then smart and since we're in the entertainment business it's a constantly moving grey line about how much lee-way to give people. This also means that most dive boats out here insist on group dives and forbid solo diving off their boats.

As far as dealing with the general public, if I didn't mostly love it I wouldn't do it. I love to teach people how to dive, help them become better divers, and show off our endemic species.

I know this is long winded, but I'm still puzzled by your dismissal of common safe diving practices when diving in buddy teams /groups, and why you'd instantly feel that customers who get told to surface are being ripped off.

If you'd like to I'd love to know your answers to those questions.

Michael

Michael,
I think you have brought up an important issue for most major Dive Destination vacation spots... "How does a dive operation deal with the group that shows up on the boat each new time out on the water"....

Here in Palm Beach Florida, we have some similar issues with groups that will come in from all over. Most of the boats have their own plans to handle this, but commonly they will ask that each "first time on this boat diver" will stay with the dive guide/dive master, unless they declare themself a very experienced diver.....For the "first time on the boat divers", with limited experience, if they show good buddy skills and good air management skills, for subsequent dives they are allowed to be off on their own, pulling their own float, if this is what they prefer.
Most of these divers though, will prefer to remain with the dive guide.

Divers that feel they are very experienced, are allowed to take their own float--to do their own dive, and not forced to dive even the first dive with the group. Every one will get the 1 hour max duration request, and be expected to follow this if they want to be diving on the boat in the future.Some divers have an active distaste for enforced baby sitting, and Palm Beach only offers it to those who want it

I think it is the boat's responsibility to help a diver that wants help.

If a diver does not want to be part of a group, then most boats will want them to have a buddy, but solo diving is still up to the diver, not the boat...all that we mandate is that they pull their own dive flag/float, so the boat can keep track of them, and protect the area for them.

Since we have a drift current, we do know divers are all going in one basic direction, along a reef that covers a specific width in a north/south orientation--making it fairly easy for a boat to cover a group of 20 divers--even at different swim speeds. Divers are told NOT to swim up current, and this is rarely a problem, as most would not be happy going up current very far

 

[vladimir]

Here in Palm Beach Florida, we have some similar issues with groups that will come in from all over. Most of the boats have their own plans to handle this, but commonly they will ask that each "first time on this boat diver" will stay with the dive guide/dive master, unless they declare themself a very experienced diver.....For the "first time on the boat divers", with limited experience, if they show good buddy skills and good air management skills, for subsequent dives they are allowed to be off on their own, pulling their own float, if this is what they prefer.
Most of these divers though, will prefer to remain with the dive guide.

Divers that feel they are very experienced, are allowed to take their own float--to do their own dive, and not forced to dive even the first dive with the group. Every one will get the 1 hour max duration request, and be expected to follow this if they want to be diving on the boat in the future.Some divers have an active distaste for enforced baby sitting, and Palm Beach only offers it to those who want it

I think it is the boat's responsibility to help a diver that wants help.

If a diver does not want to be part of a group, then most boats will want them to have a buddy, but solo diving is still up to the diver, not the boat...all that we mandate is that they pull their own dive flag/float, so the boat can keep track of them, and protect the area for them.

Since we have a drift current, we do know divers are all going in one basic direction, along a reef that covers a specific width in a north/south orientation--making it fairly easy for a boat to cover a group of 20 divers--even at different swim speeds. Divers are told NOT to swim up current, and this is rarely a problem, as most would not be happy going up current very far

This is a better way to dive, all around. Everybody on the boat should be happy, regardless of experience or temperament.

 

[fisheater]

Regardless of whether you like or dislike guided dives, once you sign up for one, you have to play by the rules. When the DM signals "dive over, surface now," the dive's over and you surface.

If he called the dive early so that he could meet his friends for cheap beers at the local happy hour, then go off on him on the boat or dock.

However, he may have called the dive early because another diver had medical issues and needed on the boat evaluation and treatment or a quick return to get to EMS.

That's the DM's call.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[divermike1011]

I'll address as many points as I can before I have to leave for work.

First off someone asked if the normal practice out here is everyone does guided dives. The short answer is yes, most dive guides and most boats are fairly insistent that everyone stick with their dive guide. (I'm on Oahu, Hawaii btw). I hate group dives. Hate 'em. Hate 'em as a DM/Instructor, hate 'em when I was a non-pro booking my own dives. I've posted pretty strongly worded posts on this in other areas of this board, but suffice it to say my ideal customer is one who is capable of diving their own profile and does.

Sometimes unfortunately you have situations where group dives happen. In this case I had four divers, two young ladies who wanted me to guide them to look for specific marine life and the aforementioned buddy pair who wouldn't listen to my signals. Now generally if you approach me and say "I have lots of experience, I have safety gear I can use, and I understand I need to be back on the boat in about an hour," you're off to the races with my blessing after I give my site briefing. In this case a DM who had them the day before gave me a heads up along the lines of, "These two muppets look like a couple of Christmas trees, have the diving skills of a stoned rhesus monkey, go through air quicker then Imelda Marcos goes through shoes, and have a tendency to get so distracted by picture taking they need to be reminded of things like NDL." Now that in and of itself is a good bit of information to know, but I still might have given them the benefit of the doubt had one of the deck hands not approached me on the way out and told me that he and the captain would feel a whole lot better if these two stuck with me. Since I already head two divers -- well, a group dive was what was on the plan for that day.

I am not the end all and be all of dive guiding. One of the reasons I post on SB is to see how other people view situations. I am sure someone else could have come up with a different solution that would have kept the customers happier.

And you're right, I would much rather take verbal lashings on the surface then deal with an underwater emergency. I am confident these particular customers would have a different version of events, one that didn't paint them in such a negative light. And that's their right to feel that way. In posting this thread I wanted to make the point that even if it pisses you off to not ignore signals to thumb a dive.

I think most people are onboard with that point, and its good to see such a wide range of responses, including those who are in the "guided dives suck" camp (because they do). Hopefully I'll take some points away from this and not set myself up for this mess in the future (although Murphy's Law is alive and well in the diving world).

Michael

PS DivermasterDennis, like someone else posted just add a link to your book to your signature line. Then please stop talking about it. Your writing in your posts is so poor, and some of the reviews on Amazon so scathing that I personally will give your book a miss. Thanks!

 

[danvolker]

I'll address as many points as I can before I have to leave for work.

First off someone asked if the normal practice out here is everyone does guided dives. The short answer is yes, most dive guides and most boats are fairly insistent that everyone stick with their dive guide. (I'm on Oahu, Hawaii btw). I hate group dives. Hate 'em. Hate 'em as a DM/Instructor, hate 'em when I was a non-pro booking my own dives. I've posted pretty strongly worded posts on this in other areas of this board, but suffice it to say my ideal customer is one who is capable of diving their own profile and does.

Sometimes unfortunately you have situations where group dives happen. In this case I had four divers, two young ladies who wanted me to guide them to look for specific marine life and the aforementioned buddy pair who wouldn't listen to my signals. Now generally if you approach me and say "I have lots of experience, I have safety gear I can use, and I understand I need to be back on the boat in about an hour," you're off to the races with my blessing after I give my site briefing. In this case a DM who had them the day before gave me a heads up along the lines of, "These two muppets look like a couple of Christmas trees, have the diving skills of a stoned rhesus monkey, go through air quicker then Imelda Marcos goes through shoes, and have a tendency to get so distracted by picture taking they need to be reminded of things like NDL." Now that in and of itself is a good bit of information to know, but I still might have given them the benefit of the doubt had one of the deck hands not approached me on the way out and told me that he and the captain would feel a whole lot better if these two stuck with me. Since I already head two divers -- well, a group dive was what was on the plan for that day.

I am not the end all and be all of dive guiding. One of the reasons I post on SB is to see how other people view situations. I am sure someone else could have come up with a different solution that would have kept the customers happier.

And you're right, I would much rather take verbal lashings on the surface then deal with an underwater emergency. I am confident these particular customers would have a different version of events, one that didn't paint them in such a negative light. And that's their right to feel that way. In posting this thread I wanted to make the point that even if it pisses you off to not ignore signals to thumb a dive.

I think most people are onboard with that point, and its good to see such a wide range of responses, including those who are in the "guided dives suck" camp (because they do). Hopefully I'll take some points away from this and not set myself up for this mess in the future (although Murphy's Law is alive and well in the diving world).

Michael

!

Given your exact scenario, I think you are handling it perfectly...ie., I doubt most of us will be able to give you a better way to handle things that what you are already doing.
I'm just glad it is you and not me having to do this

 

[Matt P]

It doesn't matter how you feel (pro | con) about buddy dives, group dives or guided dives. Once you agree to participate you are bound to play by the rules of the dive. Don't like the buddy/group/guided rules? Don't do the dive. Work out an alternate situation. Some divers appreciate (or require) buddy/group/guided dives. It is unfair to them when the group splinters and the DM has to park the group to chase down the fleeing cats.

 

[TSandM]

If the dive briefing says that when one goes up, all go up, then everybody in the group knew that condition. If the muppets had had an objection to that, they should have said so right then and there, and refused to go with you. Then the boat captain (or whoever the senior representative of the dive operator was on the boat) can make a decision as to whether they are permitted to dive at all.

But to agree to the conditions and enter the water, and then refuse to obey the signal to end the dive, is unacceptable. I'm with whoever said that those divers would not have been allowed to do the second dive, unless a stern talking-to produced a clearly repentant diver.

I don't like group dives, although I have enjoyed the critter-spotting abilities of people with a lot more local experience than I have. But when I do them, I agree to the rules. In only one case did I not do so, and our entire group of five decided that the behavior of the dive guide was intolerable and we were not going to follow him.

 

[scubadobadoo]

Yeah, I hate group dives as well like most of us. It is one of the many reason I love shore diving destinations. That said, like others here, if I agree to do one then I follow the rules unless something is not at all what it should be. For example, in Cozumel (almost every dive is DM guided), we once had a DM who even on shallow reefs would ask us to come up after about 40 mins (using nitrox) for no apparent reason other than to speed his day along. I did the first time, then back on the boat I kindly reminded him that when I asked the op I was told one hour BT at least assuming we had the air and NDL time for the dive. 2nd dive same thing 40 mins. My response to that is to ask for a partial refund and then choose another op. In the case of the OP here though it seems like the divers had plenty of promised BT and were just rude.

 

[Mossman]

I had an interesting experience in Rangiroa. It was a guided dive in Tiputa Pass as an excursion from a cruise ship (Paul Gauguin) and the current is such that it's considered an "advanced" dive. We were rolling along just fine and had plenty of air, when another diver apparently had an issue with the current or it was too strong for the DM or who knows why, but the DM called the dive after only 35 minutes. That was annoying enough, especially since we were paying $125 for a single tank dive, but it got worse.

It was rough on the surface so I bided my time at 8-10' while watching the other divers slowly clamber aboard the boat, saving myself for last since I can scamper up a ladder real quick, didn't need to hand up my BC like some of the others in the group. Suddenly, while there were still two divers waiting in line, a hand grabbed me and yanked me to the surface. Apparently the DM didn't like my hanging below the nasty surface conditions and risked embolizing me to "save" me. I chewed him out big time back on the boat, hoping that the English F word translated OK to French. And, needless to say, I didn't tip.

 

[Dr Wu]

You are correct about me being dismissive about anyone else's dive. I do not claim to care, and I don't buddy dive, if I'm forced to dive with someone when on work trips I make sure to let the insta-buddy know that I'm useless for them.

If you "don't care", why would you agree to descend with a person you were "forced" to buddy with?

(also, how were you forced under the water with this individual? And who did the "forcing"?)


If you accepted the commonly understood relationship found in diving with another individual, you were responsible to carry out those terms. Regardless of how well you knew them.

Why tell this "insta-buddy" you were going to be "useless" when diving solo was an option?