PSA for those doing vacation Guided Boat Dives

[Ana]

If you "don't care", why would you agree to descend with a person you were "forced" to buddy with?

(also, how were you forced under the water with this individual? And who did the "forcing"?)


If you accepted the commonly understood relationship found in diving with another individual, you were responsible to carry out those terms. Regardless of how well you knew them.

Why tell this "insta-buddy" you were going to be "useless" when diving solo was an option?

It is very simple. I just do what a great number of divers do, I'm just up front about it.

Here is the typical situation for me. The work I do takes me to very cool places for several weeks at a time, sometimes I have enough down time that I can sneak a dive, but not enough time to interview charters much less to find a buddy. So the deal is a quick phone call to see if there is room for one, no need gear, I have everything I need, and by the way I rather dive solo. As you may or may not imagine it, that doesn't work all the time. Many charters don't allow me to dive solo after a phone call, hence I'm force to dive with a buddy. However I have the decency to tell them that will be a useless buddy. They don't really care, as long as my money is good and they follow the rules 99.9% of times their response is "yes whatever". Which is why I also tell the person stocked with me to not count with me for anything.

Do you understand now the way I am forced? When my only options are diving with a buddy or not diving, means I'm being forced to dive with a buddy.

 

[divermike1011]

Ana:

Actually I don't see how you are forced. You're making a choice to circumvent the rules placed on you by a dive operator who doesn't allow solo diving. I am sure that 99% of the time that works out well for you and your insta-buddy (and good on you for being up front with that buddy, instead of just taking off during the descent). However it begs the question: if you have to lie to dive, or if you have to ignore common diving practice to dive, why dive? Do you not feel at least an ethical responsibility towards your instabuddy(i'm not suggesting there is a legal responsibility)? That's the part I think most of us are confused on. A lot of people on this board solo-dive (myself included) but I think most of us acknowledge the "rules" of charter diving and follow them even if it's not the type of diving we prefer. It's your obvious hatred of common diving practice, and by implication other divers who might interfere with your enjoyment that puzzles me.

Michael

 

[fjpatrum]

I'm curious whether it would be common practice, after the first dive, to not allow them to do the second dive.

I think if I were a guide put in your position I'd be exercising that option.

 

[Dr Wu]

Do you understand now the way I am forced? When my only options are diving with a buddy or not diving, means I'm being forced to dive with a buddy.

No, I don't.

I'm afraid I still do not see how you were "forced" to dive with this buddy.

No one forced you in any way.

Apparently you called ahead to find a charter boat and stated you will be diving solo.

The charter told you you must have a buddy on all dives off their boat and would help you mate with one during the journey.

You agreed to the boats terms beforehand but when arriving at the dive site claimed an entirely different set of rules applied to you.

Why go through all that trouble to annoy the good people that took you on the charter under their rules in the first place?

If you were really interested in diving solo you should have made arrangements to do it without annoying the boat management people and buddy diver they had chosen for you.

You are ALWAYS free to dive the way you like in nearly any body of water you choose. But you are NEVER allowed to ignore the rules put forward by the people that you hire to bring you there.

Find your own way to the dive site next time. Leave everyone else out of it.

 

[divermike1011]

Fjpatrum:

I'll freely admit I may have screwed up in letting them do the second dive. I felt my little talk about sticking together had turned their attitudes around after the first dive. Would I do things the same again? No. I'd take the time to really make sure they understood that the rules of diving off this particular boat are not optional, and given them the choice of following the rules or not diving. I think one of my motivating factors in doing the second dive was to give them a chance to show that the first dive had genuinely been a misunderstanding. Can't win 'em all I guess.

Michael

 

[Ana]

Ana:

Actually I don't see how you are forced. You're making a choice to circumvent the rules placed on you by a dive operator who doesn't allow solo diving. I am sure that 99% of the time that works out well for you and your insta-buddy (and good on you for being up front with that buddy, instead of just taking off during the descent). However it begs the question: if you have to lie to dive, or if you have to ignore common diving practice to dive, why dive? Do you not feel at least an ethical responsibility towards your instabuddy(i'm not suggesting there is a legal responsibility)? That's the part I think most of us are confused on. A lot of people on this board solo-dive (myself included) but I think most of us acknowledge the "rules" of charter diving and follow them even if it's not the type of diving we prefer. It's your obvious hatred of common diving practice, and by implication other divers who might interfere with your enjoyment that puzzles me.

Michael

If the charter tells me that I can only dive with them if I'm willing to be a real buddy I'd call the next charter from the google list.

My common diving practices are to dive off my boat while not working. While at work I try to find a charter and dive. I request for the type of service I want sometimes money gets me what I want, other times the charter wants to pretend, either way I don't care as long as the actual person stuck with me knows it. Has nothing to do with hate, why would I hate people I don't know?

And why is so difficult to understand that I just wanted to know the details of the dive where those 2 people broke your rules? few more question.. do you think those two people were full of hate also? I bet it would've been easier for you if they have told you in advance they were not planing to follow your rules, would've given you the chance to refuse your service. Do you know for sure how the owner of your outfit would respond to someone like me? ...just wondering

Along the years I found out dive charters are about money, it is a business like any other. Lack of accidents keep lawyers away which translates into more profit, certain level of entertainment produces happy customers which translates into more profit, that's pretty much the bottom line. You go on and feel big and mighty all you want, I'm ok missing out all those surprises insta-buddies bring with them, I already had my fill, thanks.

 

[Togalive]

As far as ending a scientific career I wonder how does that scenario comes in play here?

I was only reaffirming that no matter if its recreational diving, technical diving, commercial diving, or scientific diving, if someone thumbs the dive, its over, no questions asked.

My purpose in commenting on the ramifications to do so was to point out that while there may not be any punishments for calling a dive early (as there shouldnt be) there most definitely are in most any case for ignoring a "thumbs up".

 

[DevonDiver]

Have divers, even those that hired for guide/DM service, sign waivers of liability. If they want to do things on their own, then let them.

Personally, I wouldn't recommend that - as I've seen the consequences upon dive businesses and dive professionals who've been involved in serious dive incidents and body recoveries.

Theoretically we know that the divers' are responsible for themselves - they are trained/qualified and should apply their training.

It's easy to dismiss the psychological consequences of such involvement from a theoretical basis, but rare to escape them when it actually happens. I know more than a couple of pros who've quit the industry after being involved in such traumatic events.

The same is true for dive operations, who invariably suffer negative media exposure when their customers die. Can you really think it's good for business if your dive centre name comes top of a Google search - but in connection with a fatal diving accident?

Devon, you must have posted as I was typing. You have good points, this was a far less then ideal situation. FWIW I do think a group of four is manageable, although I'd agree not across all possible situations. These are the first two I've had in a while who just sucked at diving, and perhaps I was too complacent. Ah well, learning experience for me.

I think that DM-led group diving can encourage irresponsible mindsets. Putting divers into buddy pairs and letting them plan their own dives hands them back some responsibility and focuses their minds on applying their training. It also allows the DM to observe how the divers approach their preparation, which should ring alarm bells if they are incompetent or irresponsible. If the divers' planning isn't satisfactory, then you can address the issue at an early stage, long before you get into the water with them.

 

[Ana]

So the deal is a quick phone call to see if there is room for one, no need gear, I have everything I need, and by the way I rather dive solo. As you may or may not imagine it, that doesn't work all the time. Many charters don't allow me to dive solo after a phone call, hence I'm force to dive with a buddy. However I have the decency to tell them that will be a useless buddy. They don't really care, as long as my money is good and they follow the rules 99.9% of times their response is "yes whatever". Which is why I also tell the person stocked with me to not count with me for anything.

Apparently you called ahead to find a charter boat and stated you will be diving solo.

The charter told you you must have a buddy on all dives off their boat and would help you mate with one during the journey.

You agreed to the boats terms beforehand but when arriving at the dive site claimed an entirely different set of rules applied to you.

Why go through all that trouble to annoy the good people that took you on the charter under their rules in the first place?


Find your own way to the dive site next time. Leave everyone else out of it.

You may want to re read my post again, I do not agree to something and then change, I tell them in advance in my phone call if they have a problem I look for another charter, just like I told the other poster you will be surprise how little most of the charters care as long as I pay.

Oh and by the way, this is not some I did once, this is what I do regularly. That is my procedure to "find my own way to the dive site". Funny that my final goal is actually to leave everyone else out if it

 

[divermike1011]

Ana: We have divers like you on a weekly basis, if not more frequently. You're not the first person to think that the agreed upon rules don't apply to them. Having watched my boss refuse to allow people to dive when they make it clear they won't follow the rules I'm pretty sure he'd be comfortable with me making the same call.

I am not questioning your right to dive the way you want to dive. I'm questioning why you think it's okay to blow off the rules you agree to when you sign up for a dive charter. If you hate insta-buddies, a limit on your bottom time and all of the other hassles that can go along with charter boat diving why do you do it?

Dive-solo, dive sans BCD, dive however you want -- but please don't make people's lives more difficult by agreeing to a set of rules for a given dive with your fingers crossed.

As far as the details for these divess, I happily provided them, but does it matter? Would it be okay for them to refuse to surface if it was ten minutes in to the dive? Or even one minute in to the dive?

I have no clue what you are like as a person, all I can say is based on what you've said about your feelings on charter dives that you are outside the accepted practices by willfully blowing off the rules.

Michael