Deciding on gear and whether to get it

[victorzamora]

Me too. Currently my alternate second stage doesn't have the cracking-pressure knob and I wish it did (luckily, I can add one to it, after which they will both have one). I find it really useful - although like you say, that probably doesn't apply across the board.

That's why I elected for my primary to have both adjustments. It kind of put me over budget, but I can stretch a buck for long enough to hold me over. I figured it MUST do something because if not people would stop buying them, but I have no experience with them so it's not make or break...hence going slightly cheaper on my octo. As I pointed out before, however, I didn't go too much cheaper on my octo for aforementioned reasons.

victorzamora: Glad you didn't take my remarks as negative. And sorry that it looks like you're replying to a mystery post. I decided to edit my post, and thought I did. However when I looked back, it wasn't edited; but the edited version was still in the text box so I "activated it." I guess you were replying right around the same time.

Yeah, seems like I did. Oh well, not too much harm done


One more question I have though is this: should my primary reg have a black hose or a yellow hose? I know it doesn't seem like that big of a difference, but in an OOA situation is the yellow hose needed or should my buddy just know to grab out of my face?

 

[Blue Sparkle]

About the DIN/Yoke reg. My fear with all big purchases is that I'll quickly outgrow them.

You may actually have the option to change anyway. I'm not familiar with your brand of regs, but mine can be internally changed from DIN to yoke or vice-versa (as opposed to externally with a spin-on adapter). My regs are yoke because I knew that all of my early diving would be with rental yoke tanks; but I also know that I can have them changed to DIN (or do it myself), if/when I want to. It sounds like you are set for now, but I figured I would mention this option in case you want to change them in future.

I asked the LDS owner about a 5' or 6' foot hose. He recently switched from a shorter hose to a 7' hose so he could have it wrapped under his arm instead of around his head.

I noticed a brief mention of "under arm instead of around head" before, but I didn't want to get too wordy in my reply so I didn't mention it. I dive with a 5' hose, and I can say that the "standard" routing of a 5' hose vs. a 7' hose is no different as applies to "under the arm instead of around head." Either way the hose routes down the right side of your back, under your right armpit, then across your chest from right to left, around the left side of your neck, behind your neck from left to right, and then around the right side of your neck to your mouth.

The difference with a 7' hose is in the initial "under the right armpit" phase. The 7' hose at this point takes a longer "dip" and goes under something on your waist belt (at right hip) or tucks into the belt if you don't have a something to route it under. After that it comes right back up to the chest and takes the exact same route as the 5' hose. Neither of them go "around" your neck or head. I say that because they both go around the back of your neck, but neither encircle your head; the initial routing under the right armpit precludes any "full noose" effect.

That said, I can see plusses and minusses to the 5' hose for open water.

One more question I have though is this: should my primary reg have a black hose or a yellow hose? I know it doesn't seem like that big of a difference, but in an OOA situation is the yellow hose needed or should my buddy just know to grab out of my face?

I've seen experienced divers (in videos mind you; I don't have many to dive with myself, currently) do it either way. I'd say I've seen more black hoses than yellow, but I have seen both. What I did was go with a black "long" (5') hose, but then move the yellow purge cover from my "conventional" alternate second stage to my primary second stage - since that is the one I am going to donate (and the black cover is on my necklaced reg). Too, I thought that with the longer hose taking a longer route, the main thing would be that they see what to grab, not try to decipher the route of the hose.

I have seen "long hose" divers with no yellow at all; I presume they are diving in experienced team settings where everyone will know the setup. Since I usually boat dive in open water, and since my usual buddy uses a "conventional" setup with the yellow alternate second stage, and since there is a reasonable possibility that random other boat divers will approach me for air, I figured why not move the yellow purge cover up to my primary (donate) regulator so that I would have some yellow to show.

My usual buddy and I practice air-sharing reasonably often, and we'll swim for a bit in the "donated" arrangement. Even though we dive with different setups, it seems to have worked out okay so far (we haven't had a "real" need to share air though, so I can only say "seems").

Blue Sparkle

PS: One note to add: At first, I did get a few mildly raised eyebrows from shop owners or DM's about my setup since I tend to dive on boats with people who use the "conventional" setup. It was mostly about "wait, you're going to donate your primary?!" I replied yes, and let them know that my buddy and I had practiced it, showed them the donate motion, and showed the yellow purge cover. That seemed to be fine, so there was no real problem and we simply continued on with our day.

But I did get to rib my "home" shop's owner (who had teased me about it the most) after a day when I "insta-buddied" with a fellow who was using the shop's rental gear. I had suggested a donation practice in our pre-dive checkover when I realized he had an Air 2 type alternate second stage and that the only way it made sense to use it..... Hmmm.... Removing the Primary?! Who would do that?!

 

[Bubbletrubble]

About the DIN/Yoke reg. My fear with all big purchases is that I'll quickly outgrow them. For example, I purchased standard roller blades for hockey to save money, but had to go back and get them when I started getting competitive. I've done that a lot through my childhood...and realized that as toys get more expensive you can't always just buy another one because you want to, so I buy things that I can't outgrow as easily...and if I grow into tec-diving I'll want to not have to repurchase regs (and tanks, if I buy tanks). Also, I do not own my own tanks. The LDS here has DIN and Yoke tanks. Really, my decision for Din over yoke was swayed by the LDS owners. One of the two owners is very big into tec diving, the other is getting into it. They both recommended Din with adapter over purchasing a Yoke reg...and they said there were cheap places to get them online that I should look at, so it's not to make money off of me.

With the right parts, the appropriate tools, and the proper knowledge, most regs can be converted from DIN to yoke or yoke to DIN.
As an OW recreational diver, your reg configuration choice should be based on the kind of tank valves you'll be using.
There is usually not much of a price difference for a reg based on DIN or yoke configuration.

Tech divers prefer to use the DIN connection because overhead environments can more easily dislodge the yoke connection.
The style of diving (tech, wreck, cave, etc.) that the LDS owners happen to do should not influence the kind of reg configuration (DIN vs. yoke) that they recommend to you for your diving (OW recreational).

No, I understand what it's supposed to do (I think). I believe it's to adjust how much suction is needed before the reg feeds me air, correct? Unfortunately, I've only ever been diving with rentals. None of them have seemed to do a thing! In my 8 years of diving and nearly 300 dives I've never met one that made a difference

Then either you haven't been paying attention to subjective breathing performance...or the regs haven't been tuned/serviced properly.

Rental regs run the gamut from poor to excellent performance. The majority of rental regs I've encountered fall into the fair to good performance rating. Reg techs often de-tune rental reg second stages to prevent unintentional free-flow. The disadvantage of setting up regs like this is that the cracking pressure will be slightly higher than it could be. I prefer to tune my second stages "hot" (on the edge of free-flow) for better performance.

The breathing adjustment knob/screw (max/min) controls the cracking pressure of the second stage. This alters the minimum amount of suction required to initiate gas flow.

The Venturi lever (+/-, dive/pre-dive) directs gas flow to create a suction on the proximal side of the diaphragm. With the lever in the "+"/dive position, this suction makes it easier to maintain gas flow after it's already been initiated.

In other words, cracking pressure controls the start of gas flow, whereas the position of the Venturi lever influences the end of gas flow.

Reg manufacturers may implement these controls differently.

I asked the LDS owner about a 5' or 6' foot hose. He recently switched from a shorter hose to a 7' hose so he could have it wrapped under his arm instead of around his head. The other LDS owner dives with a 10' hose and tucks the excess into his waist belt.

Blue Sparkle addressed this issue. Most commonly, hose routing on the long hose primary is similar for the 5 and 7 ft. hoses. Both travel under the right arm and wrap counterclockwise around the diver's neck. With the 7 ft. hose, the extra 2 ft. is kept tidy by tucking the hose into the waist belt.

The only thing I'll add is that, when considering reg hose length, you need to be thinking about the respective positions of the gas donor and gas recipient.
If you are cave diving or wreck diving where divers must pass single file through restrictions, then the hose on your donation reg must accommodate that. This is why many cave/wreck divers opt for a 7-ft. primary hose or longer.
If you are diving in a typical OW recreational environment, a long hose primary that's 5 ft. long would be sufficient for air-sharing. With this donation hose length, donor and recipient can be face-to-face, side-to-side, top-to-bottom, etc. There's no need for single file air-sharing since there's no overhead.

On a separate note, some larger people prefer the routing of a slightly longer hose (5.5-6 ft.) because the 5-ft. hose doesn't seem to be quite long enough (when not air-sharing).

 

[victorzamora]

First of all, thank you for all of your help.
Second of all, you NEED to watch this video.
Third of all, in that video I caught sight of a few different hose setups. One guy had a short hose, vest-style. One guy has a yellow hose under right arm, around neck, and then into his mouth. Another guy has a longer black hose over his right shoulder, under his left arm, around the right side of his head, and reg in mouth. I believe that's the setup I'm going for. I might end up swapping it up and going under my right arm, across my waist, under my left arm, and then around the right side of my head. If I get sick of that setup: I'll go over my right shoulder, tuck the excess into something, under my left arm, and then around the right side of my head. I hope to have enough slack that it doesn't pull or get tight on my second stage.

 

[Colliam7]

Having followed the discussion I will add a few thoughts, about hose routing, hose lengths, and reg / tank valve configuration.

I might end up swapping it up and going under my right arm, across my waist, under my left arm, and then around the right side of my head.

I may not understand the proposed routing, but I would be concerned that this approach defeats the idea of easy deployment / donation of the primary. Generally, in an OOA the donor uses his/her right hand to remove the primary second stage from their mouth and offer it to the recipient, bringing the hose over the head (i.e. bringing it from behind the head) in the process. It is one continuous motion - grab the second stage hose, close to the second stage, with your right hand, pull the second stage out and up, while turning it 180 degrees, so the orifice is now facing the recipient instead of the donor. After the recipient has the second stage in place (in their mouth, breathing, etc), the donor completes the deployment of the long hose by freeing the rest of the hose from under the right arm, and bringing it over the right shoulder. (And, as an aside, the donor actively gives the second stage to the OOA diver, rather than letting the OOA diver find and retrieve it, so having a yellow purge cover on the primary, or a yellow hose, is unnecessary - nothing wrong with it, just not required.) The approach you describe here, with the hose running under both arms, seems a bit awkward and would possibly slow the process down -the part that caught my attention was the 'under my left arm' comment - as well as create the possibility of entanglement with the SPG hose. If you have the SPG clipped to a D-ring on you left waist strap, the long hose running under your left arm will need to stay forward of the SPG hose to avoid becoming trapped by the SPG hose. As with most things in diving, there are a number of ways to route the hose and individual preference plays a role, so I am not suggesting your approach is 'wrong'. But, the description worries me a bit. Since you mention that your LDS owners are apparently tec divers, it might be worth getting their input on the issue as well.

As for the long hose length, you've gotten good comment on options, such as 5' vs 7'. While bubble is right, that the 7' long hose is probably most useful when swimming single file (caves, wrecks) in an OOA situation, there is nothing whatsoever wrong with using it when swimming side by side in a recreational diving OOA / low air situation. Fortunately, the vast majority of us are never involved in a real OOA situation, and much of our experience with long hose deployment comes only from practice. But, I practice deployment of a 7' hose regularly, and find that it works quite well when swimming side by side, with the donor slightly aft of the recipient - the donor head is even with the recipient's shoulders, for example. The recipient is holding the hose with one hand to prevent it from being pulled out, and to orient the hose and second stage comfortably. I see the 5' hose being used more often by divers under 5'7" in height, although that is not a hard-and-fast rule by any means. A properly routed 7' hose (Blue Sparkle provided an excellent description) stows quite nicely, when routed either down the right side and under something (pocket, knife/shears, wreck reel) on the waist strap, or down the right side and simply tucked into the waist band.

I agree with bubble that YOUR choice of a DIN vs yoke regulator should be based on the type of diving YOU do, rather than what the LDS owners do. I personally only use DIN regs, with the exception of one yoke pool reg. But, that means that when traveling and using rental tanks - most of which are yoke, at least in the western hemisphere - I have to use a DIN-to-yoke adapter (which I do not like, as it moves the first stage too close to the back of my head), OR reconfigure my regs before the trip (which I prefer). If you will own your own tanks, and the majority of your diving will be done with your own tanks, a DIN regulator makes more sense. If you would do the majority of your diving with rental tanks, a yoke regulator might seem more logical. I would echo an idea mentioned earlier - in buying your regs, consider getting a yoke reg with a DIN adaptor kit (which is essentially a DIN bolt, a DIN wheel and a plastic spacer. The conversion (for most regulators, although I cannot speak for Hollis) is quite easy - less than 2 minutes of effort, requiring only an Allen wrench and a yoke bolt socket. Keep the regulators configured for DIN, except when planning to travel to a place where you would use rental tanks. Or, go with DIN and the DIN-to-yoke adaptor.

It sounds like you are getting a very nice deal on gear, and that you access to some LDS owners with a good experience base and a very helpful approach. Enjoy the diving.

 

[victorzamora]

I hadn't even thought of the hose getting tangled with the spg. My plan is to put my SPG clipped off on a D-ring high and tight on my chest. I've only ever been diving with 2-gauge consoles tucked in my waistband (all rental) and I can't stand it. I saw one guy clip an SPG off higher up and tight, and just a brass and glass gauge and I decided that's what I was doing. What it really comes down to, seems like, is how the bcd/regs fit on me. That question will be answered in about 2 weeks (I have to wait for my tax return to come in and then have them order it). About the people 5'8"....I don't have the same issues they do. I'm 6'6". I'll have plenty of height to hide the excess hose in .

About the DIN/Yoke stuff...you're right, most of my diving WILL be off rental tanks in the western hemisphere. I've only ever been diving yoke. I'll look up Hollis conversion kits and if I can't I'll just email them. I'll go ahead and get the yoke one put on my list instead of DIN and hope there's a conversion kit.

EDIT-- Side note, this setup is every penny I can afford right now and then some.....but the diving I'll be doing in the near future is through the LDS with both DIN and yoke tanks. Does that change anything?

EDIT2-- I found a couple leads but nothing concrete. I'm contacting Hollis about a conversion kit.

PS- Good to see someone only a couple of hours down the road from me! (I'm living in Mt Airy, NC)

 

[Colliam7]

I hadn't even thought of the hose getting tangled with the spg. My plan is to put my SPG clipped off on a D-ring high and tight on my chest.

OK, makes sense. That approach actually adds to my concern about the possible routing of your long hose. I was thinking that you would have a somewhat longer HP hose for your SPG, and clip it off to a waist D-ring. But, using a shorter HP hose, and routing that under your left arm and clipping it to a chest D-ring also works well. The people I know who do it that way position the SPG so they can see it by looking down, without having to unclip it. But, if you then try to route the long hose under that left arm as well, you may face some challenges.

About the people 5'8"....I don't have the same issues they do. I'm 6'6". I'll have plenty of height to hide the excess hose in .

In that case, I would definitely go with the 7' hose, rather than a shorter one. And, I would seriously consider the routing that Blue Sparkle outlined ("the hose routes down the right side of your back, under your right armpit, then across your chest from right to left, around the left side of your neck, behind your neck from left to right, and then around the right side of your neck to your mouth.") My only added thought is that I find it more comfortable to route the hose down and under something on my waist strap (the knife, reel, or pocket I mentioned before), rather than directly under my right arm and across the chest. I will not call the approach 'standard', because that would invite rebuttal responses from 10 people who might do it differently. But, let's just say it is a 'common' routing.

What it really comes down to, seems like, is how the bcd/regs fit on me.

Absolutely. We (and you) can speculate all day long. See how it fits after you get it. Given your height, you may find the need for an individualized routing.

I'll go ahead and get the yoke one put on my list instead of DIN and hope there's a conversion kit. . . . but the diving I'll be doing in the near future is through the LDS with both DIN and yoke tanks. Does that change anything?

What I have found is that most rental tanks are AL80s. And, most of those are yoke. Where a shop/charter OP has HP steels available for rent, most of them are DIN. Although, for your own tanks you can get valves (e.g. Thermo Pro valves) that allow the use of either type of reg, most rental equipment does not have that set-up, it is usually yoke for AL and DIN for HP steels. So, if you think you are going to be diving DIN tanks in the near future, through the LDS, for example, I suspect that a DIN reg is the better choice. Then, you can convert to yoke as needed, either using a DIN-to-yoke converter, or by changing out the yoke connection on the reg itself.

Good to see someone only a couple of hours down the road from me! (I'm living in Mt Airy, NC)

Does that mean you're a Mt. Airy native, in school at Tech?

 

[victorzamora]

OK, makes sense. That approach actually adds to my concern about the possible routing of your long hose. I was thinking that you would have a somewhat longer HP hose for your SPG, and clip it off to a waist D-ring. But, using a shorter HP hose, and routing that under your left arm and clipping it to a chest D-ring also works well. The people I know who do it that way position the SPG so they can see it by looking down, without having to unclip it. But, if you then try to route the long hose under that left arm as well, you may face some challenges.

I'm thinking, because of videos, reviews, and pictures, my first attempt will be BlueSparkle's routing suggestion. Under right armpit, around head. I clarified with the DM/Owner at the LDS and he didn't have the room to go under his arm with the shorter tube...so it went over his shoulder, around his head, and then in his mouth. THAT is what he mentioned I should avoid. About the SPG, my number one thing is checking air easily as that way I'll be more likely to do it. My pet peeve is screwing around with those big consoles and having to do flips to check my air.

In that case, I would definitely go with the 7' hose, rather than a shorter one. And, I would seriously consider the routing that Blue Sparkle outlined ("the hose routes down the right side of your back, under your right armpit, then across your chest from right to left, around the left side of your neck, behind your neck from left to right, and then around the right side of your neck to your mouth.") My only added thought is that I find it more comfortable to route the hose down and under something on my waist strap (the knife, reel, or pocket I mentioned before), rather than directly under my right arm and across the chest. I will not call the approach 'standard', because that would invite rebuttal responses from 10 people who might do it differently. But, let's just say it is a 'common' routing.

Yeah, I can tuck the rest of it away anyway...or maybe put it on a snorkel keeper if there isn't enough to really tuck. My dive buddy and roommate is good with paracord...so we might be tying some awesome little rigging out of paracord to help tuck the excess out of the way. Maybe I'll make sure wherever the excess tucks also keeps it out of my armpit. If I talk about my DM/DI/or LDS Owner....he's the co-owner and the person I have the most face-time with. The other owner actually dives with a 10' hose for single-file diving through tight caves without his buddy needing to be immediately following him. He said that the excess doesn't bother him at all. While I don't think I want 10' of hose, I don't think an extra 12" or so will hurt.

Absolutely. We (and you) can speculate all day long. See how it fits after you get it. Given your height, you may find the need for an individualized routing.

I'll post back what I end up doing after I get my gear. The LDS owner here said I could help him out with a few Discover Scuba events and I might take him up on that offer so I can at least try my gear out under water.

What I have found is that most rental tanks are AL80s. And, most of those are yoke. Where a shop/charter OP has HP steels available for rent, most of them are DIN. Although, for your own tanks you can get valves (e.g. Thermo Pro valves) that allow the use of either type of reg, most rental equipment does not have that set-up, it is usually yoke for AL and DIN for HP steels. So, if you think you are going to be diving DIN tanks in the near future, through the LDS, for example, I suspect that a DIN reg is the better choice. Then, you can convert to yoke as needed, either using a DIN-to-yoke converter, or by changing out the yoke connection on the reg itself.

Yeah, my LDS has a few tanks with valves that look JUST like the thermo pro valves....and that's what I'll buy when I buy a tank. As far as I can tell, all of my diving for the next 6 months (and maybe 18 months) will be through this same LDS. They have DIN and Yoke tanks, so I can take my pick. Also, I can spend the next at least 6 months finding a good DIN/Yoke adapter or conversion kit.

Does that mean you're a Mt. Airy native, in school at Tech?

My past is a pretty long story, but I've lived in Mt Airy nearly half of my life and have been in and out of it my whole life. My mom's family is FROM Mt Airy...and I graduated from Mt Airy High School, if that helps .

 

[Blue Sparkle]

Generally [with the "long hose" setup], in an OOA the donor uses his/her right hand to remove the primary second stage from their mouth and offer it to the recipient...
(And, as an aside, the donor actively gives the second stage to the OOA diver, rather than letting the OOA diver find and retrieve it, so having a yellow purge cover on the primary, or a yellow hose, is unnecessary - nothing wrong with it, just not required.)

After reading this, I went back and re-read my post and I want to clarify a couple of things I probably could have expressed better.

On the yellow purge cover on my primary: I said "then they will know what to grab," but then Colliam7 rightly pointed out that typically the long-hose donor will actively give the reg to the OOA diver. And I don't disagree with that. I'm guilty of having a scenario in my head that I didn't fully express, which is that most of my diving is from boats, and so far just about all of the other divers (whom I have no previous connection with) dive the "usual" setup where they come and look for the reg if they need it. And although we drill, my usual buddy also uses that "usual" set-up, and his alternate is yellow.

So between those considerations, and the fact that I already had one black and one yellow purge cover, I decided to keep one yellow (at least so far) and simply move it to my primary reg. That way if someone in proximity (who is not my buddy) needs air, and does come up to "grab," (maybe unexpectedly), they will have a target. Too, it seemed to help with DM's who were unfamiliar with my set-up. That's not to say that I might not change it in future (I could order a black purge cover).

The second thing is that I said something like "there are plusses and minuses to a 5' hose in open water." Re-reading, I could see that it might sound like I meant "as compared to the "usual" setup. But what I was thinking when I wrote it was "as compared to just going with a 7' hose."

The main minus, for me, is that the hose can tend to "float up" in back (behind my head) and give me a sort of "bucket bail" effect over my head. That's annoying. I don't think a 7' hose would do that, because it would be anchored on my right hip, and thus come up on a different angle (I have not tried one though).

On the "plus" side, as I mentioned, I typically dive from boats, with people used to the "usual" setup, and I doff my gear in the water and hand it up to the DM. For that I don't mind at all that there is not two more feet of hose. I can clip off my primary and the dangly loop is more minimal. 7' would be "more snake" in that case. Also, the 5' hose is plenty long for me (5'5", short torso), and seems positively roomy on air shares compared to my usual buddy's 30-something-inch(?) hose.

If you are 6'6" though, 5' would very likely be too short for you, as Colliam7 mentioned (although it might depend on your build as well). My usual buddy is only 5'10" - but barrel-chested - and we switched regs one day for him to try the long(er) hose. It was ridiculous on him, and put the primary off to the side of his mouth like a Popeye pipe. Too short!

I can't speak to any of the alternate routings, but I can say that the "standard" routing of the long hose works beautifully when it comes time to donate. Before you try it it seems like it will kind of be "stuck" behind your head - or like you will have to do gymnastics to donate - but in reality it comes out in one smooth, easy motion, with just a very slight duck of the head. I do it on the boat right after I put my rig on, just to be sure all is free and operational, and it's just trivial there or in the water. At least that's how it works for me.

I clip my SPG off at my left hip D-ring, and although I do un-clip it to view it, I don't tend to "have to do flips" to view it. I just reach down and un-clip it (motor memory/feel), and then bring it up to where I can view it, before re-clipping it (motor memory/feel). So I move the SPG but not my torso. That's not to say you might not prefer a different way, but just to say that I don't have to change my body position to view it. I do have to reach down to unclip it and re-clip it though, as I cannot see it without moving it.

 

[Bubbletrubble]

Oops. I forgot that you mentioned you were 6'6" tall. You might be happier with a 6-7 ft. hose, depending on how you choose to route it. Before buying anything, I'd recommend trying out someone's 7-ft. hose to see whether that length is right for you.

I agree with Colliam7's assessment of the awkward hose routing under both arms. Stick with the more common routing described by several of us in this thread.

For reference, I'm 5'11" with a thin/fit body type. The 5-ft. primary hose works great for me. There's plenty of length for air-sharing in an OW recreational environment. When not air-sharing, the hose stays nicely coiled around my torso/neck with no reg-pulling at all (when the reg is in my mouth). For taller divers or divers with more girth in the torso, a longer hose might be more appropriate.