new divers and rescue skills

[DivemasterDennis]

I look at the issue this way: What do I need my buddy to know to be comfortable diving with them? They need to know to stay close to me and be aware of me; they need to know how to share air; they need to be calm enough to assist me if needed in getting free from an entanglement; they need to know the proper emergency ascent to use if the need arises, and they need to know how to stop me if I am a "runaway ascent." If we are diving alone at a remote location, I want them to know basic first aid, including cpr, and I want them to be able to get me out of the water if i am in distress. Some of you solo divers don't really think in those terms, but I do. My wife and I go off on or own regularly at fairly remote sites. She is by no means a rescue diver, but she can what needs doing if the need arises. We review and practice sometimes. Isn't that a novel idea? How much rescue and first aid skill a diver NEEDS is relate to the type of diving they do. Trail ride dives from a boat to 40 feet in calm seas with a DM or two in the water is a lot different that a more taxing dive from shore or boat, with only the buddies around. Too often we try to prescribe for everyone when not everyone does the same kind of diving. So when I buddy up, I share information about myself and get information about the buddy, and make sure each of us is adequate for the diving planned.
DivemasterDennis

 

[Ayisha]

My brother-in-law became a diver through PADI around 1990. I did my o/w about 10 years ago and then a couple of months later I was about to do my AOW. My brother-in-law had no familiarity with "Advanced" and asked what we would be learning. I told him that we were going to do U/W Navigation, Peak Performance Buoyancy, Deep, Night, and 1 more dive that hadn't been revealed yet. He looked at me incredulously and asked, "What? You didn't learn to navigate in your o/w? You didn't learn buoyancy? You didn't learn to dive deep or at night? How can you be certified and not know buoyancy or navigation?" I told him that we learned a little bit but now we would be learning more. I found out at that time that his course was 8 weeks long and included everything, and he found out that mine was one weekend of class and pool and one o/w weekend.

Six weeks after that, I did my Rescue class and pool, and then 2 days of Rescue o/w. Until I told him that I was taking the Rescue course, he again had not realized that I had only done a little bit of rescue techniques in my o/w and thought that was still a requirement in o/w. I was starting to get a picture of what was happening within the industry.

Rescue skills and a solid proficiency of basic skills was achieved regularly in o/w certs once upon a time, with more time allotted. It can be done with more time and a very dedicated instructor. We have all seen even after a 4 day course, the o/w students who look like naturals and pass everything with ease, and we've seen those who have been diving for years who are still struggling. A dedicated instructor who shows empathy and takes the time to practice skills until the student is proficient can produce divers who have the confidence, training and skills to be an equal buddy and effectively rescue someone. Even if the speed and efficiency may not be on par with someone who has effected many rescues, it can make the difference between life and death.

 

[Bob DBF]

Bob, in the scientific community we accomplish that (and did so for many decades before the RSTC ever existed) by having a much longer course. Come to think of it, recreational courses used to be the same length ... I wonder what happened?

I love rhetorical questions.

Since we both have been diving long enough to watch it happen, I'll let some youngsters chime in. Besides, one rant in a day is enough.



Bob
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It is necessary for us to learn from others' mistakes. You will not live long enough to make them all yourself.
Hyman G. Rickover

 

[drrich2]

Now the topic of CPR and similar skills is a completely separate one, I personally think its pretty much common sense that every one should have basic first aid and CPR training. I mean its not exactly time consuming to learn, why limit the CPR requirement to scuba in some countries its required in order to get a drivers license.

I think this highlights an issue.

1.) On the one hand, yes, it'd be 'nice' if EVERYONE (say, age 15 and up maybe) in the world knew CPR and First Aid, and probably a laundry list of other potentially useful skills (wilderness survival, anyone?) on the off chance that person was ever the sole potential responder to stumble upon someone in a crisis the training covered.

2.) Buuuuut, the overwhelming majority of the U.S. population chooses not to do that. When I was a kid, people often said of the U.S. 'It's a free country.' I almost never hear that anymore. This is the same forum where people post griping about charter boats requiring AOW cards to dive over 60' in places, complain about the 'Nanny State,' some chafe at restrictions some places have against solo diving, and there's the attitude 'My business, butt out,' to be blunt about it.

3.) While diving deaths do occur, is there reason to believe the rates are much higher than other sports/activities? Your kid doesn't have to be CPR & First Aid certified to play high school football or basketball. Or in grade school, under adult supervision to play them with the other kids informally (at least when I was a kid; the helicopter parent society today is a bit different). In the U.S., we don't have to be CPR certified to drive a car on the off chance we're in, or stumble upon, a wreck with a cardiac arrest.

4.) Is the gist of this thread 'Would it be nice if everyone did this,' or 'This is how we think it ought to be, let's revise OW training standards & force everybody to get it or no C-card?'

5.) What next? Maybe pass a law kids can't ride bicycles in the neighborhood unless under constant supervision by someone certified in First Aid in case they fall and break a limb or get a head injury? And forget climbing a tree without a trained buddy!!!

Free country indeed...

Richard.

 

[DiveNeptune]

I think this highlights an issue.

1.) On the one hand, yes, it'd be 'nice' if EVERYONE (say, age 15 and up maybe) in the world knew CPR and First Aid, and probably a laundry list of other potentially useful skills (wilderness survival, anyone?) on the off chance that person was ever the sole potential responder to stumble upon someone in a crisis the training covered.

3.) While diving deaths do occur, is there reason to believe the rates are much higher than other sports/activities? Your kid doesn't have to be CPR & First Aid certified to play high school football or basketball. Or in grade school, under adult supervision to play them with the other kids informally (at least when I was a kid; the helicopter parent society today is a bit different). In the U.S., we don't have to be CPR certified to drive a car on the off chance we're in, or stumble upon, a wreck with a cardiac arrest.

Free country indeed...

Richard.

You kid doesnt need to know CPR, but his coach does. Any decent recreation program requires coaches to get certified by a number of various agencies and most include a CPR training. In HS, athletic trainers and coaches have CPR. Its part of the job of being a coach, you are responsible for those under your supervision.

I can teach someone Bystander-CPR in about an hour, not that much to ask.

Yes its a free country, and your free to do what you want, and if you want to dive, you need to pass a class that includes CPR

I can provide sources, but the survival rate of cardiac arrests increases dramatically when CPR is initiated by some who witnessed the arrest. I dont see a CPR card as a huge burden, and its the difference between life and death, statistically. I dont really have a huge argument, because i think this is common sense.

It also highlights another issue...We should make the courses what they need to be, and if people fail because they cant learn the skills, then they fail, tough ****. Turning out people who are dangerous to be in the water makes it dangerous for everyone else in the water and increases liability.

 

[drrich2]

You kid doesnt need to know CPR, but his coach does. Any decent recreation program requires coaches to get certified by a number of various agencies and most include a CPR training. In HS, athletic trainers and coaches have CPR. Its part of the job of being a coach, you are responsible for those under your supervision.

Not when the kids play informally without an adult present, which (at least when I was a kid) is often. Duly noted about 'official school activities,' though.

Yes its a free country, and your free to do what you want, and if you want to dive, you need to pass a class that includes CPR

No, you don't. Is this something you're in favor of trying to force on people to get basic OW certification?

I can provide sources, but the survival rate of cardiac arrests increases dramatically when CPR is initiated by some who witnessed the arrest.

Relative to odds with no intervention, but CPR in the situation of cardiac arrest outside a hospital setting is probably going to fail.

It also highlights another issue...We should make the courses what they need to be, and if people fail because they cant learn the skills, then they fail, tough ****.

So, using CPR & First Aid as examples, what number of serious injuries/fatalities in diving is 'okay,' and what number is 'too many?' Do we have any hard evidence that the current serious injury/fatality rates in recreational diving are in the 'too many' category, and that CPR & First Aid requirements for all divers would push them into the 'okay' section?

You claim it's a free country & you can do what you want, but people who can't or don't do a course to suit your standards (including CPR, which seems a fairly arbitrary requirement unless we've got the hard evidence I mentioned) are told "tough ****" and they can't participate? Not necessarily with you, but with each other as informed consenting adults?

What rational basis is there to stop at First Aid & CPR? People talk about experience; perhaps OW candidates should be required to go on some 'runs' with a local EMT service and witness real emergencies so they'll be more psychologically ready to handle the stress if one comes up on a dive. If everyone had to complete GUE Fundamentals before getting an OW cert., they'd be better buddies and safer divers, too, right? Ridiculous, I know, but my point is, what rational basis is there to draw the line in one place vs. another?

I'm glad some courses include some rescue skills, that the training is available, and I advocate helping make people aware of it so more people can get the training. What I take issue with is the mentality that says 'Let's make everybody do this because we think it's a good idea!'

Richard.

 

[PfcAJ]

There's a difference between being free and being lawless.

 

[drrich2]

The current crop of OW students aren't breaking laws. And if the laws become too restrictive, there comes a point where the people aren't free. I believe the phrase 'It's a free country' was meant to indicate a strong cultural slant toward personal liberty at the expense of legislative control over the individual adult citizen.

I'm not sensing that 'strong cultural slant' here much!

Richard.

 

[ROMO DIVER]

I agree that there are a lot of things we could teach that would make newly certified divers safer to themselves and others but from reading the accident reports on this board the thing that screams to me is lack of judgement! The vast majority of incidents could have been prevented by divers staying within the limits of their training and not needing the skills of rescue training in the first place. This has been one area of my program that I have really added emphasis to lately.

 

[gcarter]

You kid doesnt need to know CPR, but his coach does. Any decent recreation program requires coaches to get certified by a number of various agencies and most include a CPR training. In HS, athletic trainers and coaches have CPR. Its part of the job of being a coach, you are responsible for those under your supervision.

I can teach someone Bystander-CPR in about an hour, not that much to ask.

Yes its a free country, and your free to do what you want, and if you want to dive, you need to pass a class that includes CPR

I can provide sources, but the survival rate of cardiac arrests increases dramatically when CPR is initiated by some who witnessed the arrest. I dont see a CPR card as a huge burden, and its the difference between life and death, statistically. I dont really have a huge argument, because i think this is common sense.

It also highlights another issue...We should make the courses what they need to be, and if people fail because they cant learn the skills, then they fail, tough ****. Turning out people who are dangerous to be in the water makes it dangerous for everyone else in the water and increases liability.

That's an argument for instructor and DM, not OW.