NACD Intro - 58cf Limit - Why?

[LiteHedded]

shall I go back and post your quotes as AJ did? what's the point?
enjoy your class. and do some cave diving. then you can form an informed opinion on the current training standards.

 

[ucfdiver]

Sorry you think that way, LiteHedded. I seek understanding of differing views. I do not, however, believe in rigidity of thought.

I am not trying to convince anyone of *my* point of view, only to understand why the current requirements are not sufficient in your view.

I sense that you think that this discourse is "challenging" you, because I ask you to explain.

Y'all have, however, attributed extreme attitudes on me ["good enough" and "on the cheap"] when none of that is true. Since I cannot seem to express myself well enough, I guess I'll 'give it up' as recommended.

Many thanks to those of you who took the time to enhance my understanding by explaining the logic and reasoning behind the requirements and standard!

Jax,

What is one good reason to allow single tanks in the overhead environment, other than fattening instructors wallet by enabling the masses to take an overhead course?

I think it's pretty clear that redundancy is preferred to dive in any overhead environment, possibly excluding cavern. I don't think it's a good idea in cavern not to have full cave gear, as the course is where all the basics are taught, but I realize that some just want a cavern class and that's it, so maybe a single tank is OK.

Maybe I just don't understand what you're trying to say, but to me it's clear the standards, which allow someone to take intro to cave in a single tank a week out of their ow class, aren't high enough.

 

[Jax]

Sigh . . . okay, I'm a glutton for punishment.

As you have mentioned, I do not have the training or experience to justify the single tank.

I believe that experienced, well-trained cave divers got together in the past and formed these agencies and came to a consensus that the minimum equipment and dives is sufficient.

Without the training and experience, I support those who volunteered and took the time and developed the training programs and specifications. Period. I understand why they did what they did, weighing the risks and balancing them with the needs of the community as they saw it. who am I to say they are wrong? They make sense to me, and I trust that the highly experienced ones made appropriate decisions.

I believe that if these requirements are not sufficient, then the cave community would campaign for more or stricter requirements. People would volunteer for the positions in the agency and work towards that goal. If those that 'campaigned' to take positions in the agencies did not have sufficient support from the community, s/he would not be voted in.

There does not seem to be an active campaign to increase the requirements. Ergo, the current requirements are sufficient.

-----break -----

I've asked enough questions on the board and talked to people way more trained and experienced than I, and *I* have made the decision for *me* that the minimum requirements are not sufficient *for me*. Period.

Just because *I* came to the above decision *for me* does not equate to "I think everybody should dive stricter requirements." *I* don't have the training and experience to say the agencies are wrong. Because I respect those that have made those decisions, I support them.

I was hoping to hear why those that disagree with the agencies would explain why -- from their advanced, experienced position - the current requirements are not sufficient.

Logical debate means statements such as "everybody knows" and "everyone agrees" and that "should've", "could've" and "oughtto've" be challenged for the logical facts behind those statements. It's like "everybody knows diving is dangerous". It's begging the question, like "do you still beat your wife?"

 

[Daedalus]

Nevermind.

 

[cavemn]

I believe that if these requirements are not sufficient, then the cave community would campaign for more or stricter requirements. People would volunteer for the positions in the agency and work towards that goal. If those that 'campaigned' to take positions in the agencies did not have sufficient support from the community, s/he would not be voted in.


I was hoping to hear why those that disagree with the agencies would explain why -- from their advanced, experienced position - the current requirements are not sufficient.

There is no debate. We covered this already. Certs are for the profit of the agency and the instructor. Good curriculum gives way to teach to the lowest common denominator. Good instructors like mine teach across multiple agency materials and have their own material(book) to bridge the gaps missing in the others. They do this because they care about their students beyond training.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Good instructors like mine teach across multiple agency materials and have their own material(book) to bridge the gaps missing in the others. They do this because they care about their students beyond training.

Right.

Except with all the right instruction and all the right equipment, I still don't understand why you need "head protection" to cave dive.

What do you wear for head protection and why?

Typically a basic skillset will keep you from hitting your head on cave...

 

[cavemn]

Right.

Except with all the right instruction and all the right equipment, I still don't understand why you need "head protection" to cave dive.


Typically a basic skillset will keep you from hitting your head on cave...

I still do not have the right helmet setup for lights. So, I'm not wearing a helmet, but I sure do see a bunch of other more experienced divers wearing them.

 

[limeyx]

AJ, you seem of the belief that everyone should dive full cave gear from the beginning. It's a thought, but also throws up a huge barrier.

Not as big a barrier as several (tens of several?) feet of solid rock and no air between it and the water.

I think there SHOULD be a big barrier to going into a cave, and 1/3's on singles "these days" (i.e. with modern gear, training and knowledge) is pretty nuts.

It's not necessarily even the 1/3s (which is bad enough) but a huge single failure-point on the regs, plus the entire attitude of "There shouldn't be a barrier, it should be easy"

of course, I suppose it's (supposed) to be a "free country" here in the US so who would I be to try to stop someone ?

 

[LiteHedded]

Not as big a barrier as several (tens of several?) feet of solid rock and no air between it and the water.

I think there SHOULD be a big barrier to going into a cave, and 1/3's on singles "these days" (i.e. with modern gear, training and knowledge) is pretty nuts.

It's not necessarily even the 1/3s (which is bad enough) but a huge single failure-point on the regs, plus the entire attitude of "There shouldn't be a barrier, it should be easy"

of course, I suppose it's (supposed) to be a "free country" here in the US so who would I be to try to stop someone ?

that's what annoyed me most and made me post in this mess of a thread. cave diving is deadly serious and that attitude is dangerous

 

[limeyx]

that's what annoyed me most and made me post in this mess of a thread. cave diving is deadly serious and that attitude is dangerous

Agreed, now I am off to climb Mt Rainier in my slippers and and leisure suit

EDIT: It will probably be OK as long as I only go a couple thousand feet up, right ???