Vortex 3-18-2012

[Hetland]

Assuming an average sac between .5 and .6 (likely higher)
An average depth of 120ft (likely deeper)
About 300 cuft of gas (likely less)

A diver would be out of gas at the two hour mark.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Just so you know, Edd Sorenson went and brought Larry out.

I am not saying that Eduardo did not do a great job in finding Larry and bringing him out or that he should have been put into the position of lifeguard without being asked to be before hand by Larry. My concern is just that he was told (according to the news report) by Larrys girlfriend that he left instructions to get help if he did not surface in the allotted time he set. So the gf went and found Eduardo and he told her that Larry was fine and not to worry. And it was not until an additional hour went by that he started to do anything. Like I said, this is all according to the news report, and Eduardo did an awesome recovery job, but if it was taken more seriously in the beginning, it may have had a better outcome. I know that if someone had come to me and said someone was supposed to be back at a certain time and has not come back yet, I would have started a search instead of saying he is fine, don't worry.

 

[manni-yunk]

Antenna on the line may make it hard to cut the line in the event of a tangle that may require cutting ones-self loose.

Since you would be in close prox to the line - no thick antenna would be needed - a VERY thin antenna could be imbedded in a line, making it VERY easy to cut.

---------- Post added at 06:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:30 PM ----------

I think antennas are just a good way to get false security and not to mention killing cave conservation.
.

I wholeheartedly disagree. The suggestion that by improving a mechanism for awareness of a potentially trapped or injured diver, in and of itself - creates a false sense of security and kills conservation is counter intuitive.

I dont believe people would think - "if I get stuck - they will know and someone will save me". I dont think it would work that way.


BTW - I dont agree that a pony, in and of itself, creates a false sense pf security either. It creates redundancy - Thats it.

Do more people ride a motorcycle because helmets exist?

The antenna would require a transpdoner on the actual diver- and those would only be issued to qualified cave divers. This technology could be EASILY developed and installed - the real problem is that there is not likely a commercial market, where a reasonable profit could be made - to force the development.

 

[Hetland]

The antenna would require a transpdoner on the actual diver- and those would only be issued to qualified cave divers. This technology could be EASILY developed and installed - the real problem is that there is not likely a commercial market, where a reasonable profit could be made - to force the development.

but then, who is responsible to go in and un-ass the diver in trouble? should we pay to have dive-police standing by at every diveable cave? who gets sued when someone doesn't go in to save a diver in trouble? who gets sued if the rescue is unsuccessful? who gets sued if the rescuer dies? what happens if there is a false alarm, are you going to reimburse the rescue divers for their time and expenses? what if someone dies during a false alarm? maybe all airplanes should have ejector seats installed for every passenger, that way, when a plane gets into trouble, everyone can self-rescue? maybe everyone who operates a motor vehicle should first take a breath test, wear 6-point restraints, helmets, and spine stabilizers?

I could go on.

 

[Roko]

Since you would be in close prox to the line - no thick antenna would be needed - a VERY thin antenna could be imbedded in a line, making it VERY easy to cut.

---------- Post added at 06:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:30 PM ----------





I wholeheartedly disagree. The suggestion that by improving a mechanism for awareness of a potentially trapped or injured diver, in and of itself - creates a false sense of security and kills conservation is counter intuitive.

I dont believe people would think - "if I get stuck - they will know and someone will save me". I dont think it would work that way.


BTW - I dont agree that a pony, in and of itself, creates a false sense pf security either. It creates redundancy - Thats it.

Do more people ride a motorcycle because helmets exist?

The antenna would require a transpdoner on the actual diver- and those would only be issued to qualified cave divers. This technology could be EASILY developed and installed - the real problem is that there is not likely a commercial market, where a reasonable profit could be made - to force the development.

Your intent is good, but it's not a simple solution.

A long thin antenna running the entire length of the line may pick up a small signal from a diver mounted transponder (which would have a trade off between frequency low enough to punch a couple of meters through water and transponder antenna size, which increases as frequency goes down), however the electrical field generated in this hypothetical line antenna would be low since out would not be matched to the right frequency... This line antenna would then have to act as a transmission line to get the signal back to the surface. It would be a very Lossy transmission line, attenuating an already small signal to nothing in a very short time.

What you would have to do is have receiver units with their own antennas located at set intervals (dictated by the range the signal will make it through the water, which will be very small) but then you'd have to provide sufficient power and differential communication lines -an ethernet cable could work, but it would have to be a heavy duty OSP cable capable of staying submerged and under pressure -- and that's disregarding the high voltage you'd have to run through the line in the first place to get around line losses.

Cutting a thick, electrified cable underwater is about the last thing I'd want to do...

There may be a way, but it'll be far from simple....

But now we're just getting off topic.


Sent from my SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

 

[limeyx]

I wholeheartedly disagree.

... just out of interest, how much cave diving do you do ? (And how much would 500,000+ feet of that line cost which is actually less than the size of some of the Mexico systems)

and ... yeah, whos going to be "on call" to come out & rescue people butts after the 85th "false alarm"

Just does not seem at all practical....

 

[jwp8363]

Starting a search is fine if you just happen to have sidemount tanks with appropriate trimix and deco tanks lying around full. Pretty pointless otherwise.

As I am not a cave diver, I do not know how everything is set up, but I am rescue certified and I was taught to never take a missing diver situation lightly. Dont they have an emergency kit set up for just this type of scenerio? I realize that there may not have been a chance to get divers in the water immediatly, but to tell someone that the missing is diver is fine and not do ANYTHING until the same person comes back one hour later with the same missing diver story does not make sense to me. I also do not understand some of the comments saying that given how deep he was and how far in he was, that it would not have made a difference that they waited an additional hour to even start to organize the search. He may have been already gone by then, but waiting the additional hour definatly added an additional nail to the box.

---------- Post added at 07:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:39 PM ----------

Just so you know, Edd Sorenson went and brought Larry out.

Sorry Kevin, I did not see that it was Edd that pulled him out. thanks for the correction

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Maybe this is over your head. When you are an established cave diver it will make more sense to you.

Since you would be in close prox to the line - no thick antenna would be needed - a VERY thin antenna could be imbedded in a line, making it VERY easy to cut.

---------- Post added at 06:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:30 PM ----------





I wholeheartedly disagree. The suggestion that by improving a mechanism for awareness of a potentially trapped or injured diver, in and of itself - creates a false sense of security and kills conservation is counter intuitive.

I dont believe people would think - "if I get stuck - they will know and someone will save me". I dont think it would work that way.


BTW - I dont agree that a pony, in and of itself, creates a false sense pf security either. It creates redundancy - Thats it.

Do more people ride a motorcycle because helmets exist?

The antenna would require a transpdoner on the actual diver- and those would only be issued to qualified cave divers. This technology could be EASILY developed and installed - the real problem is that there is not likely a commercial market, where a reasonable profit could be made - to force the development.

 

[Jax]

As I am not a cave diver, I do not know how everything is set up, but I am rescue certified and I was taught to never take a missing diver situation lightly. Dont they have an emergency kit set up for just this type of scenerio? I realize that there may not have been a chance to get divers in the water immediatly, but to tell someone that the missing is diver is fine and not do ANYTHING until the same person comes back one hour later with the same missing diver story does not make sense to me. I also do not understand some of the comments saying that given how deep he was and how far in he was, that it would not have made a difference that they waited an additional hour to even start to organize the search. He may have been already gone by then, but waiting the additional hour definatly added an additional nail to the box.

Not a cave diver, either, JWP . . . let me try this scenario . . .

Lots and lots of people hike in the mountains. Does it make sense to have search teams and equipment standing by, just in case?

It costs manpower, equipment, and all the maintenance thereof to have a stand-by searcher. In the case of the tiny cave-diving community, they have dedicated, volunteer, cave divers to respond to a call.

Cave Divers are trained to solve every problem underwater. They know they cannot depend on "rescue". Cave Divers accept the risk and plan - plan - plan for the contingencies.

 

[jwp8363]

Not a cave diver, either, JWP . . . let me try this scenario . . .

Lots and lots of people hike in the mountains. Does it make sense to have search teams and equipment standing by, just in case?

It costs manpower, equipment, and all the maintenance thereof to have a stand-by searcher. In the case of the tiny cave-diving community, they have dedicated, volunteer, cave divers to respond to a call.

Cave Divers are trained to solve every problem underwater. They know they cannot depend on "rescue". Cave Divers accept the risk and plan - plan - plan for the contingencies.

thanks for the scenario Jax. I dont think my problem is with them having rescue gear on hand at every site. my problem with the whole thing is that nothing was even attempted to get organized until the girlfriend came back the second time and requested help again. That additional hour may not have made any difference at all, but it might have also. it would have given the search team an hour more time to try to get to the missing diver.

---------- Post added at 07:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:54 PM ----------

and I am not saying that there has to be a stand-by rescue diver at every cave entrance. what i am saying is that when someone reports a missing diver, do not try to reassure them by saying that he is fine and dont worry and then not do anything for an additional hour.