Vortex 3-18-2012

[jeffloughridge]

One problem being, if this is run as the mainline in a cave system, and you experience trouble and cut it, you might have someone coming for you. But what do you now do about the possibility of another team being in the cave at the time and once that line is cut, and a strong flow pushes it out, the other team has no guideline to the surface.

Absolutely. I meant only to demonstrate it could be done without any expensive or high tech equipment. That doesn't change the fact that it is both impractical and fraught with other issues.

 

[limeyx]

I don't want to cause drift again, but I am compelled to reply regarding a signalling system. I'm going to throw this out there not because I think it is a good idea (I don't) but to illustrate there is a simple solution.
[snip]

Jeff Loughridge

Awesome. I have an idea too.
How about before you make any more posts about this, you go down to a Florida or Mexico cave, install all the equipment, convince some local divers (good luck on a ranch in Mexico) to be On-call to respond to any emergencies.

Then come back and give a report on "how it went" (Give it say 6 months of operation to collect enough data to really tell)

Nick

 

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

Absolutely. I meant only to demonstrate it could be done without any expensive or high tech equipment. That doesn't change the fact that it is both impractical and fraught with other issues.

The real truth here is that the system of cave diving isn't really broken.There is no real problem that needs fixing. Vortex is the only cave I am aware of that has a locking gate. There could be others but it doesn't matter for sake of conversation. Other places people could drive or boat to a location and just go in. That is the real problem, not that there are lights or plastic ropes or such. People are going to go where they should not and then blame the "system". Florida courts have long held to the "Personal Responsibility" rule when it comes to scuba deaths.

There is no magic wand to fix this, or any other real life, problem. Untrained divers are going to continue to go into overheads and die. Trained cave divers are going to continue to make mistakes and die. Trained cave divers are going to go beyond their training and die. Trained divers are going to have medical issues while diving and die. Trained cave divers are going to have equipment issues (recent CCR incidents) and die. Trained cave divers are going to, flat out, violate the rules and die. Explorers are going to push limits and die. (this is the only one that actually might make any sense since we all have to die). These are the hard truths.

Adding another safety device that will be disregarded will not help. Getting back to solid training, and responsible divers will end this issue once and for all......in a perfect world. Even with a state of the art personal locator beacon / alert in a cave, a quick response is, most often, not realistic. If a cave diver, who can make a rescue, is nearby there are many dynamics involved.

1. Has a dive just been made that requires a significant surface interval by the most likely rescuer / searcher?
2. Do bottles need to be filled and or mixed with a specific bottom and travel gas. That takes time.
3. How much time has passed in the missing diver's case?
4. Bringing a body out is sometimes a monumental task. You have to deal with depth changes, buoyancy for 2, visibility, flow, size of the tunnel, condition of the lost / deceased diver (bloating and being stuck in a place, or rigor) which makes it difficult to move a victim.

We all desire to help and to stop this from happening. In this case it may have been nothing more than a medical issue, ie heart attack. It may have been diving beyond training and running out of gas trying to solve a problem. In any case it happened and it will happen again. After 20+ years as a police officer I have found life is like a train. Sometimes you have to just watch it happen and do what you can afterwards. Beyond warning people verbally there is, really, not much else we can do. We should never stop trying and we should continue to think outside of the box, because sometimes a solid practical idea does present itself.

The bottom line in scuba is this: You are responsible for your actions. I am not responsible for you unless you are my agreed upon buddy and then I am only responsible to help where I can. You are responsible for you even when you have a buddy, as your buddy's are responsible for themselves even with you there. Get the proper training and experience or be ready for someone to tell you mother, father, wife, husband, children, etc that you won't be coming home. Folks, it is not that hard of a concept. The system is not broke..... we are. The end.

 

[irishsquid]

The real truth here is that the system of cave diving isn't really broken....
There is no magic wand to fix this...
Adding another safety device that will be disregarded will not help...

...The bottom line in scuba is this: You are responsible for your actions. I am not responsible for you unless you are my agreed upon buddy and then I am only responsible to help where I can. You are responsible for you even when you have a buddy, as your buddy's are responsible for themselves even with you there. Get the proper training and experience or be ready for someone to tell you mother, father, wife, husband, children, etc that you won't be coming home. Folks, it is not that hard of a concept. The system is not broke..... we are. The end.

Straight to the point, and unfortunately a LOST concept to so many folks in todays society, and not just related to diving either.

 

[Jax]

Absolutely. I meant only to demonstrate it could be done without any expensive or high tech equipment. That doesn't change the fact that it is both impractical and fraught with other issues.

You must be an engineer.

 

[JamesK]

The real truth here is that the system of cave diving isn't really broken.

The bottom line in scuba is this: You are responsible for your actions.

The system is not broke..... we are. The end.

Bravo!!!!! Everything was very well said, but these three lines say it all.

 

[jeffloughridge]

You must be an engineer.

Guilty as charged. I find solutions to problems; I also find solutions where no problems exist...as in this case.

I will say it one more time...I don't propose that idea be put in place. I think it is misguided and believe 100% in the concept of self reliance, self determination, and personal responsibility. I was merely demonstrating a proof of concept. To those who don't get THAT, you're not my problem.

 

[Jax]

Guilty as charged. I find solutions to problems; I also find solutions where no problems exist...as in this case.

I will say it one more time...I don't propose that idea be put in place. I think it is misguided and believe 100% in the concept of self reliance, self determination, and personal responsibility. I was merely demonstrating a proof of concept. To those who don't get THAT, you're not my problem.

I can relate!

 

[MPetitfils]

Hello. My name is Mark, and I'm Larry Higginbothams stepbrother. His father is married to my mother. Larry and I were in high school together, he was a senior and I was a junior. He graduated and joined the Marines, I did the same.

There is some speculation about how qualified Larry was to be in this cave. I wish I could answer that. I don't know anything about diving, except that Larry loved it with a passion. It seems like every time I saw him over the last 15 or so years, he was talking about his most recent dive. His father cautioned him often, but Larry always replied the same way. "I'm careful Pop. But if I'm going to go, then that's how I want it to be." Anyone who is reading this that may be interested in cave diving, there is one certain lesson that you should take from this.

Don't go alone. I am not a diver, but I am a reasonably smart man who works in a dangerous occupation. There is certainly merit in many of the safety suggestion in this thread. There is certainly merit in the discussion of knowledge and prepardness of a diver. But what of those things will replace a dive buddy? Another thinking, reasoning human being trumps it all. I'm certainly not suggesting that Larry's death would have been prevented by the presence of another diver. But I am as ignorantly certain as I can be that a dive buddy in this particular situation would have mitigated the danger and would have been the most effective safety measure.

I can understand the allure of being in a place like this, totally isolated and completely at peace. But you are not so isolated and alone on the surface. Larry left behind two sons, a brother, a father, a mother, and all the rest of his family, both blood and by marriage. If I had the opportunity to ask Larry just one question it would be this: Was that dive worth it?

Before you dive alone, consider what you will leave behind if you don't come up. Lifetimes of grief and sorrow. Fathers who weep while they cremate their sons. Mothers who shriek with grief at a late night phone call. Children who forget what daddy looked like, except in a photo. Consider first the cost, then consider the benefit.

God bless and keep you all.


Edited to add this picture of Larry.

 

[Jax]

Welcome, Mark - We are so sorry for your loss . . . It's a hard time for you and family and friends; please know we keep you in our thoughts and prayers.

We'll never know if anyone could have helped Larry within the limits of the gas he carried; we can only surmise. He answered the Lord's call from where he was.

I hope you understand that the community is grieving with you, and is also saddened by this loss.