Poll: Where were you (first) introduced to the frog kick (mastery not required)?

[Crush]

I understand that you, yourself, are careful to use appropriate kicks for your purpose, but I was responding specifically to this statement of yours

IMO the reason so many divers, particularly inexperienced ones, silt an environment is not that they don't know non-silting kicks, but because they are out of trim. Your statement could be rephrased as a logical entailment: frog kicks are non-silting kicks, and divers are not taught frog kicks, therefore divers silt up bodies of water. In other words, I was saying in a gentle way that your statement is an example of faulty logic, and I tried to offer a different logical entailment: diving out of trim near the bottom tends to silt up a body of water and many divers dive out of trim; therefore many divers silt up the water when they are near the bottom.

I am not sure that the fault lies with logic - it would appear to me to be a reading comprehension problem. I was trying to keep the topic light and general. Continue to criticize all you want.

 

[vladimir]

I do not think the breaststoke kick which is mentioned by some posters here is the same as a proper frog kick.
I had to relearn the kick in the fundamentals as the kick that I was doing and I thought it was a frog kick was essentially a breaststrock kick.
So for me the answer would be in fundamentals

Many posters have commented that the breaststroke kick is essentially the same as a frogkick. I don't agree with this but it is not worth arguing it.

A breaststroke kick is, by definition, a frog kick, if you are doing the breaststroke properly. But you could certainly argue that the optimal frog kick for underwater is a little bit different.

I was just told by my instructor to frog kick. Maybe scuba instruction was different when swimming skills were taken for granted.

breast·stroke

   [brest-strohk, bres-] Show IPA noun,verb, breast·stroked, breast·strok·ing.
noun1.Swimming . a stroke, made in the prone position, in which both hands move simultaneously forward, outward, and rearward from in front of the chest while the legs move in a frog kick.


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[boulderjohn]

I didn't vote because I didn't see an opportunity. I was introduced to it in a TDI class, but I was required to do it.

Why do you seem to think only GUE teaches this skill?

 

[Crush]

Why do you seem to think only GUE teaches this skill?

I don't think that only GUE teaches this skill. Personally I was introduced to it in Cavern (NACD). I singled out GUE because their GUE Rec I is "basic OW-like" in that you go from not being certified to dive to being certified to dive, but the training in Rec I seems to be more extensive than most basic OW courses. My omission of TDI is based wholly on my ignorance of TDI. Similarly I didn't include the Scripps program that Thal teaches, largely out of my near-perfect ignorance of the course.

In life, where a situation can be attributed to either incompetence or to conspiracy, in most cases the culprit is incompetence.

---------- Post added April 24th, 2012 at 06:45 AM ----------

About the frog kick. In my mind the frog kick, as I understand it in the context of scuba diving, involves the diver (depicted in the masterpiece below with "#" symbols) having knees and ankles bend to that thrust from the fins (the fins are depicted with ")" symbols) is parallel to and at approximately the same level as the tank (depicted below with "*" symbols)

*************** )))))))))))))))))))
#### ***************** ###
#### *************** ###
############################################
##############################

whereas body position for a frog kick, as I understand it in the context of the breast stroke, is shown below.

***************
#### *****************
#### ***************
#################################################)))))))))))))))))))
#############################

WOW - the spaces that I carefully inserted were removed, making the "images" above meaningless.

 

[vladimir]

WOW - the spaces that I carefully inserted were removed, making the "images" above meaningless.

Thank you for that. I saw it before I spent much time trying to decipher the diagram.

I think we would probably all agree that the kick used in breaststroke on the surface is different from the non-silting kick we are discussing, so it's just a matter of semantics.

 

[Tigerman]

"Other"..
Having swum from the age of.. Well, before I can remember really, and one of the first types of (proper) swimming I learned being the breast stroke, where you use a form of frog kick, it was just an extension of swimming to use it with fins.
Helikopter turns was just something of playing around in the water and happening to be a convenient way to turn my snotty brat ass in a different direction.
Flutter kicks, well that just became a development of the VERY first swimming style I learned - from my dogs - the dog paddle

 

[Carlos Danger]

I picked up the frog kick on my own and from watching more experienced divers. I think the finer points just came as I got more experienced, and from diving Cenotes.

 

[pixiefish]

In my OW class we were only taught flutter kick, and not a lot about trim, to be honest, other than keeping arms still. I was introduced to frog kick and some other kicking styles on the PPB dive of my AOW, but didn't really use them for a long time, I tended to butterfly kick most of the time and concentrating on my trim, now I probably frog kick 90% of the time, as I've read and educated myself more, working towards wreck & tech diving. I also find frog kick less tiring!

I completely see what Quero is saying, that for newbies trim is more of an issue than kick style, and avoiding task-loading new divers. The PPB AOW dive is the perfect opportunity to introduce other kick styles etc.

But if you personally prefer frog kicking yourself (I mean, if one prefers frog kicking, not picking anyone out in particular)......and you're teaching an OW class who have just seen on the PADI video that when scuba diving, you flutter kick from the hip with the knees straight.....do you avoid frog kicking in front of them during the OW dives? To not confuse them?

 

[eponym]

In my OW class we were only taught flutter kick, and not a lot about trim, to be honest, other than keeping arms still. I was introduced to frog kick and some other kicking styles on the PPB dive of my AOW, but didn't really use them for a long time, I tended to butterfly kick most of the time and concentrating on my trim, now I probably frog kick 90% of the time, as I've read and educated myself more, working towards wreck & tech diving. I also find frog kick less tiring!
I completely see what Quero is saying, that for newbies trim is more of an issue than kick style, and avoiding task-loading new divers. The PPB AOW dive is the perfect opportunity to introduce other kick styles etc.
But if you personally prefer frog kicking yourself (I mean, if one prefers frog kicking, not picking anyone out in particular)......and you're teaching an OW class who have just seen on the PADI video that when scuba diving, you flutter kick from the hip with the knees straight.....do you avoid frog kicking in front of them during the OW dives? To not confuse them?

Pixie, good questions!

This is something I still vary on. You'd think that after 500 students I'd have settled on course content and such, but sometimes students need more of one thing or another and then we don't cover alternative/non-silting kicks.

So if we haven't covered it in the pool I try not to use it in open water. That takes some concentration, I admit, because it is my natural propulsion choice.

But in very poor viz I usually take students out two at a time and I prefer to have them on my left shoulder rather than behind me. Then I can kick as I like.

-Bryan

PS. Just finished a pool session for two Instructor candidates. During our debrief, one of them commented that he doesn't see me do more than a slight flick of a fin now and then. I looked at some recent video and I would agree that my forward frog is remarkably understated. But my glide phase is great. Advantages of being small and carrying the smallest wing that works.

 

[Quero]

I completely see what Quero is saying, that for newbies trim is more of an issue than kick style, and avoiding task-loading new divers. The PPB AOW dive is the perfect opportunity to introduce other kick styles etc.

But if you personally prefer frog kicking yourself (I mean, if one prefers frog kicking, not picking anyone out in particular)......and you're teaching an OW class who have just seen on the PADI video that when scuba diving, you flutter kick from the hip with the knees straight.....do you avoid frog kicking in front of them during the OW dives? To not confuse them?

I usually try to demonstrate in the pool using only flutter kicks as that is where I will get to assess each student's kick style. If they're doing okay without much bicycle kicking correction, I don't make a big deal about kick style at all and just let them dedicate their attention to what they need to focus on. In open water I almost invariably frog kick. Only occasionally will a student even notice! They are so intent on themselves, you see. But when they do notice, we can just talk about it as an option. In AOW, I do discuss kick styles, particularly in PPB, but also in Photo, Nav (a kick cycle distance doesn't transfer from one kick style to the next), Search and Recovery, etc. I never require a particular kick style, but I may require that students not raise silt .