Dive Operations enforcing rules

[mathauck0814]

Most dive operations worldwide don't understand the rules they've set. Until you educate your staff beyond the limits of the "Encyclopedia of Recreational Diving" you're going to get asinine rules governed by misunderstanding. Diving is inherently so conservatively designed. Layer in ultra-conservative computers and even more conservative dive operators and you have a recipe that serves to get the operators home in time for lunch; not one that's customer experience oriented.

 

[Teamcasa]

I do like to follow the rules when they make sense or the Dive Op has reasonably sound reason for them.

The 500 psi rule: If the Dive OP says, "..less than that will require a VIP, and you will pay". I say, "I will give you $500 cash right now if you can get water in a tank, without and mechanical aids, that has even 200 PSI in it." I've never paid. However, if they say, "This is to insure the new (read most vacation) divers come up with an adequate reserve of air." I keep my mouth shut.

Dive Time Limits: I usually follow them but use every minute. Particularly on drift dives.

You must have a guide: Unless it is a local law, or it's a site that may be complicated, (Kauai Tunnels for instance) I find a different Dive Op.

Knives, gloves, touching rules - sure - why not. I do however, keep at least one line cutter somewhere.

To me, If I'm diving with a shop, dive boat or from a resort, I'm there to have fun, so unless the rule is just plain stupid, I'll follow. On the other hand, I like discussing the rules before I book the trip and most of the time, everything works out fine.

 

[50Fathom]

What rules have you found to be stupid?

Not directed at me, but a few that I won't dive under are:

No gloves* (This one is asterisked because if I'm diving wet, fine. But if the water is below 85*, I'm diving dry and I dive with drygloves 24/7/365. So if I'm planning on being dry, which is 99% of the time, gloves ARE part of the equation.)

No lights (Bonne Terre and a few other places I've heard don't allow lights/backup lights. Fark that.)

No cutting devices (Bonne Terre again. There might be others.)

No doubles/twinsets (I enjoy diving single-tank, but LOVE diving doubles for stability and true redundancy. And oodles of gas. As long as I stay within proper NDLs and other time rules, which I rarely find onerous, what's the problem?)

No scooters (Not on a scooter yet, but it's my "end of the year goal". If I got one, I want to use it. Banning their use is ridiculous.)

 

[boulderjohn]

Not directed at me, but a few that I won't dive under are:

No gloves* (This one is asterisked because if I'm diving wet, fine. But if the water is below 85*, I'm diving dry and I dive with drygloves 24/7/365. So if I'm planning on being dry, which is 99% of the time, gloves ARE part of the equation.)

No lights (Bonne Terre and a few other places I've heard don't allow lights/backup lights. Fark that.)

No cutting devices (Bonne Terre again. There might be others.)

I don't know a thing about diving Bonne Terre, but I have encountered all the other rules quoted above, and I saw the reason for them. No gloves and no cutting devices (knives) are common rules (laws, actually) in marine parks. They are there to discourage divers from manhandling and damaging the environment. The fine for using either in Grand Cayman can be huge.

No lights is a common rule in the proximity to overhead environments for people who are not properly trained for it. The purpose is to keep unqualified people from penetrating and getting lost.

---------- Post added ----------

The "No Gloves" rule reminds me of a story related to the topic of this thread. I was diving in Belize in the summer, and the water was quite warm. A father and two teenage sons showed up for a day's diving, and I noted that they were wearing no exposure protection on their bodies, just a swimsuit and T-shirts. Then I saw them pulling on 5 mm gloves, and I thought, "What the...?" I didn't pay much attention to them at first during the dive, but later on I saw the reason: they all had no buoyancy or kicking skills whatsoever, and they used their hands to grasp the coral and pull their way around the reef. I tried to make some gestures to make them understand that I disapproved, but they had no clue what I meant. After the first dive, I talked to the DM about it. He said he had seen it and would talk to them about it before the second dive to make sure it didn't happen again. On the second dive I just watched and saw that the DM had not done a blessed thing. They still did the same thing, and the DM watched them without reaction as they did.

I wil admit now before asked that I did nothing myself, either.

 

[50Fathom]

I don't know a thing about diving Bonne Terre, but I have encountered all the other rules quoted above, and I saw the reason for them. No gloves and no cutting devices (knives) are common rules (laws, actually) in marine parks. They are there to discourage divers from manhandling and damaging the environment. The fine for using either in Grand Cayman can be huge.

No lights is a common rule in the proximity to overhead environments for people who are not properly trained for it. The purpose is to keep unqualified people from penetrating and getting lost.

---------- Post added ----------

The "No Gloves" rule reminds me of a story related to the topic of this thread. I was diving in Belize in the summer, and the water was quite warm. A father and two teenage sons showed up for a day's diving, and I noted that they were wearing no exposure protection on their bodies, just a swimsuit and T-shirts. Then I saw them pulling on 5 mm gloves, and I thought, "What the...?" I didn't pay much attention to them at first during the dive, but later on I saw the reason: they all had no buoyancy or kicking skills whatsoever, and they used their hands to grasp the coral and pull their way around the reef. I tried to make some gestures to make them understand that I disapproved, but they had no clue what I meant. After the first dive, I talked to the DM about it. He said he had seen it and would talk to them about it before the second dive to make sure it didn't happen again. On the second dive I just watched and saw that the DM had not done a blessed thing. They still did the same thing, and the DM watched them without reaction as they did.

I wil admit now before asked that I did nothing myself, either.

Oh, I know the WHY behind all of it, and I think it's lowest-common-denominator BS.

As has been said, they have their rules, but those rules clearly are in place because a certain percentage of the clientele require them. I simply won't patronize an operator with such rules. Partially because I won't be subjected to them, but also because I don't like being around that clientele.

Makes traveling difficult, and means I won't see some sites. Oh well.

 

[boulderjohn]

Oh, I know the WHY behind all of it, and I think it's lowest-common-denominator BS.

As has been said, they have their rules, but those rules clearly are in place because a certain percentage of the clientele require them. I simply won't patronize an operator with such rules. Partially because I won't be subjected to them, but also because I don't like being around that clientele.

Makes traveling difficult, and means I won't see some sites. Oh well.

Really? You would forgo trips to sites like Cozumel and Grand Cayman because you don't want to obey the laws designed to protect the reef?

OK, then. Personally, I am willing to put up with things like that.

 

[50Fathom]

Really? You would forgo trips to sites like Cozumel and Grand Cayman because you don't want to obey the laws designed to protect the reef?

OK, then. Personally, I am willing to put up with things like that.

It doesn't need protecting FROM ME. I don't like being lumped in with divers who have no control and need LAWS to protect the reefs from them.

I honestly think in cases like that, one the first day, there should be "check dives" on the bunny-slope sites like I've heard some OPs do. The divers who prove themselves capable of gas planning, control and a modicum of ability should be allowed to wear gloves, cutting devices and use lights.

Regarding Cozumel, I have no desire to go to Cozumel, and that's being totally honest. I just don't have any desire to dive there. Caymans? Maybe, but that's a weak maybe. Diving wet, and with a good operator, then maybe.

 

[Thalassamania]

I do like to follow the rules when they make sense or the Dive Op has reasonably sound reason for them.

The 500 psi rule: If the Dive OP says, "..less than that will require a VIP, and you will pay". I say, "I will give you $500 cash right now if you can get water in a tank, without and mechanical aids, that has even 200 PSI in it." I've never paid. However, if they say, "This is to insure the new (read most vacation) divers come up with an adequate reserve of air." I keep my mouth shut.

Dive Time Limits: I usually follow them but use every minute.

Particularly on drift dives.

You must have a guide: Unless it is a local law, or it's a site that may be complicated, (Kauai Tunnels for instance) I find a different Dive Op.

Knives, gloves, touching rules - sure - why not. I do however, keep at least one line cutter somewhere.

To me, If I'm diving with a shop, dive boat or from a resort, I'm there to have fun, so unless the rule is just plain stupid, I'll follow. On the other hand, I like discussing the rules before I book the trip and most of the time, everything works out fine.

There are all sorts of rules for all sorts of different reasons, unfortunately many of the rules are designed to protect the least experienced divers from hurting themselves and make no sense at all when applied to higher level divers or really exist for some convenience reason (e.g., lunch schedule at the resort) and are "pretend" safety rules.

I'd have a lot of trouble with any tropical operator who did not want me to wear gloves ... for tropical diving my gauges are mounted on the wrist of my gloves.

I also don't get the, "back on the deck with 500 psi" rules. My reserve requirements are dictated by the conditions, the dive, the team, and my abilities. I may want a reserve of a thousand PSI, I may not need more than a couple of hundred lbs. In most warm water resort diving I don't really think I NEED any "reserve" at all ... I can reach the surface quite comfortably with no air, but decompression (or lunch) constraints will usually set in before air becomes the limiting factor. However, gas in my
tank does no one any good, the best thing to do with it, under most any circumstance, is to blow off at ten feet right under the boat.

Whenever possible I to prefer rent, or borrow, a boat and escape the crowd scene and the frequent abject stupidity that it seems to engender.

 

[Nylorac]

There are all sorts of rules for all sorts of different reasons, unfortunately many of the rules are designed to protect the least experienced divers from hurting themselves and make no sense at all when applied to higher level divers or really exist for some convenience reason (e.g., lunch schedule at the resort) and are "pretend" safety rules.

I'd have a lot of trouble with any tropical operator who did not want me to wear gloves ... for tropical diving my gauges are mounted on the wrist of my gloves.

I also don't get the, "back on the deck with 500 psi" rules. My reserve requirements are dictated by the conditions, the dive, the team, and my abilities. I may want a reserve of a thousand PSI, I may not need more than a couple of hundred lbs. In most warm water resort diving I don't really think I NEED any "reserve" at all ... I can reach the surface quite comfortably with no air, but decompression (or lunch) constraints will usually set in before air becomes the limiting factor. However, gas in my
tank does no one any good, the best thing to do with it, under most any circumstance, is to blow off at ten feet right under the boat.

Whenever possible I to prefer rent, or borrow, a boat and escape the crowd scene and the frequent abject stupidity that it seems to engender.

Totally agree with the 500 psi rule - just depends on the circumstances and the rule is mainly to protect the inexperienced. Don't agree with the gloves (in warm water) - it is not just designed for the least experienced but also for the least environmentally senstive. I have seen experienced divers damage delicate environments without care that might think twice about touching things without gloves so I have to say hands off for all is best for the reefs. As you mentioned, abject stupidity and all it engenders is out there....

 

[Fish-R-Man]

The only rules that I have a hard time following are the "changing" rules. Being told one thing when booking your trip by someone from the shop or agency and then to have the DM change it up once on the boat. This has happened to me a few times, and when I asked back at the shop about the change, it ends up that the DM had his own interpretation of what their requirements are.

Most of the standard rules make sense and things like total dive time are more of a courtesy to the rest of the group if you have a fairly large number of people.

The no glove and knife rule really doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If you are not supposed to touch the reef, what difference does it make if you have gloves on. I know some people would be more apt to grab the corral with gloves on, but usually they are kicking the hell out of things with their fins anyhow. On one trip my wife got into some fire coral on a mooring line and was miserable for about a week. She is really sensitive to it. She would prefer to wear gloves anytime there is a possibility of her coming into contact with it. She has never had anyone tell her she could not wear her gloves once we explained the situation, even in Cozumel.....

I try to seek out dive ops that cater to small groups of more advanced divers. Usually after the first dive or two, the rules become fairly insignificant.......