Giving advice to newbies concerning guided dives

[ScubaSteve1962]

I'm noticing a pattern when giving advice to newbies, why do so many seem against guided dives? Did you forget that you were a newbie at one time? I've even seen some that say anyone should be able to go back to where they took their OW and be able to dive with just a buddy, I agree with that for those that took it in quarry or a lake, but for those of us that took them in the ocean that may be a little bit difficult. When on your first few dives, don't you have enough to worry about before the dive than hoping you hook up with someone to dive with. And on your first few ocean dives when you're working on buoyancy, air consumption, anxiety, and any other issues than to be making sure you watch in case your insta buddy isn't as good as they think they are? There are some of us who's only diving experience was in places where guides were required so we didn't know that when you booked with an op in Fla that you may have to hire your own. And when people are suggesting dive ops they don't mention that fact, just the size of the boat and the number of divers, and maybe something about the captain and dive master, but nothing about you may be dependent on an insta buddy!

 

[TSandM]

I don't think there are that many people here who are against guided dives for new divers. We're against "trust-me" dives, where the new diver cedes all responsibility for dive planning and dive decision-making to someone else. If you read here long enough, you'll read horror stories of dives which were led by someone who exceeded the planned depth, got lost, or failed to respond to someone's signal that they were low on gas until the situation got scary.

It is very frequent advice here that a new diver, traveling alone, consider hiring his own DM for a dive buddy. It's not a bad way to raise the odds of getting a dive buddy you won't have to rescue (although there are some stories about THAT, too!).

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

I don't think there are that many people here who are against guided dives for new divers. We're against "trust-me" dives, where the new diver cedes all responsibility for dive planning and dive decision-making to someone else. If you read here long enough, you'll read horror stories of dives which were led by someone who exceeded the planned depth, got lost, or failed to respond to someone's signal that they were low on gas until the situation got scary.

It is very frequent advice here that a new diver, traveling alone, consider hiring his own DM for a dive buddy. It's not a bad way to raise the odds of getting a dive buddy you won't have to rescue (although there are some stories about THAT, too!).

I agree, no diver should ever do trust me dives, But I will use the Key Largo for an example when people ask about dive ops there and say they're traveling alone, or this is them and their buddy's first time in the ocean they will point them to dive boats that don't put guides in the water, but that you have to pay extra, when there are dive boats that put them in the water for the same price. Or you may have some that had experience like me, only dove on the islands where dive guides are required and get shocked when the get there and have to hire one. When I see someone post with less that 50 dives about going to areas that don't do that I try to let them know so it won't be a surprise when they get to the boat. Also try to think about the dives they may have done, if the poster has mentioned being nervous about being a newbie or their first ocean dive, why suggest a dive op who's first dive is always 90ft+? When there are ops that will give them a choice. To me unless a dive op is just down right terrible, and by that I mean not enough tanks, leaving divers, really rude, I'm not going to bad mouth them because they didn't change my tanks over, or it was a cattle boat experience, that's something this person would have to make up his mind about.

 

[mathauck0814]

I think I probably fall into the "against guided dives for [divers]" category. We see entirely too many divers on charters (locally and elsewhere) that are simply incapable of executing a dive. It's not just new divers - incompetent new divers have a way of turning into incompetent established divers.

The industry creates these divers with shoddy instruction and then the industry coddles them further by accommodating them - to the point where many of the destinations that you'd like to go diving, you're required to take on a dive guide (many of whom need to be babysat themselves as they were incompetent new divers just a few weeks ago).

I don't have a problem with an optional service that's available for people who want the tour guide, but at that point I honestly don't believe anything special ought to be required of the guide other than that they know the local waters and can point out the fish you want to see. Instead we have "professionals" who can take on the "duty of care" for woefully unprepared divers.

In a world where open water divers are not denied their certifications until they can safely and confidently plan, execute, navigate and complete their dives independently a dive guide is more of a crutch or a babysitter than a guide. I'd like to see that improved.

 

[DivemasterDennis]

The fact is that many divers with scores or even hundreds of dives still go on guided dives, because that is how the dive boats run their operation. I think that there is nothing wrong with guided dives, but as TSandM put it so well, a certified diver should have the training, knowledge and skills to plan and execute a safe dive. The fact is there are a whole lot of divers who never reach that point in their recreational diving where they feel competent to grab a buddy and just go diving. I pretty sure that I was not there immediately after my certification. In addition, my local shop ran group trips that were my best way to get in diving until my wife started diving. But at some point I grew past being a beginning diver. I think you not a beginner any more when you are an active diver who can, with no one's help, properly maintain and assemble all your gear, check it for proper operation, weight your self properly, don you gear properly, and plan and carry out a safe dive in an environmentally sound manner (with good buoyancy control) with a buddy but no other supervision. There aren't many newly certified divers who are at that level, but there are some. The fact is, most divers never reach that level or even want to, and that's fine. I love leading divers on tours of interesting sites, some even quite challenging. But what I love the most is planning and diving with my buddy without a crowd around. By my definition, there are people at all credential and experience levels who are still beginning divers, and there are people at all credential levels who are not beginners. My wife Debbie, the Scubadiva, has an open water certification and is the best diver I have ever had for a buddy on recreational dives. I do hope for every newly certified diver that they stay active and grow and learn from every dive. Increased competence leads to increased safety and increased independence.
DivemasterDennis

 

[TSandM]

I'm not quite sure I completely understand the issue here. It sounds as though you are angry because people are recommending the wrong dive ops to new divers asking about the Keys? In that case, I can't say much, as I have never dived the Keys. I think it IS a good idea for people recommending boats or dive sites to new divers, to bear in mind what new divers ought to be doing and with whom; it's one of the reasons why I sometimes write that I don't think Coz is a great place for someone to make his first dive trip.

I also think it's a darned shame that the state of diving is such that someone would feel motivated to write a post suggesting that all new divers hire DMs, because they're unsafe dealing with instabuddies. We (and I'm speaking as a PADI Pro at this point ) should do a better job of training new divers . . . and divers should put some work into their diving, so that they can continue to develop their skills. I'm lucky enough to dive as part of a community of folks who have sought good and extensive training, and who have a culture of skills development and maintenance; I can instabuddy with anybody from that world, and never have the kind of problems you're writing about. It apparently is a big issue outside of my little niche.

 

[mathauck0814]

The fact is that many divers with scores or even hundreds of dives still go on guided dives, because that is how the dive boats run their operation.

They run their operation that way because the diving public requires it. Even still - if this were a value added service then the only requirement ought to be that the guide be knowledgeable of local conditions. Instead, we need to have "highly trained" "professionals" to guide the lemmings around.

I pretty sure that I was not there immediately after my certification.

To be plain - I'd not have certified you and I think others ought not as well if you cannot do this. This is what makes a diver.

I think you not a beginner any more when you are an active diver who can, with no one's help, properly maintain and assemble all your gear, check it for proper operation, weight your self properly, don you gear properly, and plan and carry out a safe dive in an environmentally sound manner (with good buoyancy control) with a buddy but no other supervision.

Again, the above are basic requirements for open water certification so far as I can tell.

There aren't many newly certified divers who are at that level, but there are some. The fact is, most divers never reach that level or even want to,

Agreed

and that's fine.

Disagreed.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

The fact is that many divers with scores or even hundreds of dives still go on guided dives, because that is how the dive boats run their operation. I think that there is nothing wrong with guided dives, but as TSandM put it so well, a certified diver should have the training, knowledge and skills to plan and execute a safe dive. The fact is there are a whole lot of divers who never reach that point in their recreational diving where they feel competent to grab a buddy and just go diving. I pretty sure that I was not there immediately after my certification. In addition, my local shop ran group trips that were my best way to get in diving until my wife started diving. But at some point I grew past being a beginning diver. I think you not a beginner any more when you are an active diver who can, with no one's help, properly maintain and assemble all your gear, check it for proper operation, weight your self properly, don you gear properly, and plan and carry out a safe dive in an environmentally sound manner (with good buoyancy control) with a buddy but no other supervision. There aren't many newly certified divers who are at that level, but there are some. The fact is, most divers never reach that level or even want to, and that's fine. I love leading divers on tours of interesting sites, some even quite challenging. But what I love the most is planning and diving with my buddy without a crowd around. By my definition, there are people at all credential and experience levels who are still beginning divers, and there are people at all credential levels who are not beginners. My wife Debbie, the Scubadiva, has an open water certification and is the best diver I have ever had for a buddy on recreational dives. I do hope for every newly certified diver that they stay active and grow and learn from every dive. Increased competence leads to increased safety and increased independence.
DivemasterDennis

When I posted this I'm only talking about newbies, usually fresh out of OW, or with less than 50 dives in a quarry or lake or other inland spot. Also I'm strictly talking about guided dives, not baby sitters. all but 5 of my 40 dives have been on boats and I have maybe seen 5 divers that required that extra attention, most set up their own equipment, and change their own tanks, knew after the first dive if they were properly weighted, could perform a safety stop alone. I've even been on a resort that offered diving that there was only one diver that required that attention. I'm like most here, after OW you should be able to sit up your own gear and check to make sure it's working properly.

---------- Post Merged at 12:01 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 11:47 AM ----------

I'm not quite sure I completely understand the issue here. It sounds as though you are angry because people are recommending the wrong dive ops to new divers asking about the Keys? In that case, I can't say much, as I have never dived the Keys. I think it IS a good idea for people recommending boats or dive sites to new divers, to bear in mind what new divers ought to be doing and with whom; it's one of the reasons why I sometimes write that I don't think Coz is a great place for someone to make his first dive trip.

I also think it's a darned shame that the state of diving is such that someone would feel motivated to write a post suggesting that all new divers hire DMs, because they're unsafe dealing with instabuddies. We (and I'm speaking as a PADI Pro at this point ) should do a better job of training new divers . . . and divers should put some work into their diving, so that they can continue to develop their skills. I'm lucky enough to dive as part of a community of folks who have sought good and extensive training, and who have a culture of skills development and maintenance; I can instabuddy with anybody from that world, and never have the kind of problems you're writing about. It apparently is a big issue outside of my little niche.

I'm only talking Newbies that ask about it, and people that may be diving alone, I used the keys as an example because Fla is one place that I know guides are not required, and some newbies don't find that out until they get to the boat, and unfortunately not all seasoned divers want a newbie tagging along. I wouldn't want to insta-buddy with a group that was going spear fishing. There was someone from another post who booked with one of those ops and found out he couldn't dive unless he hired a dive master or tag along with a class doing OW training because that was all that was going out that day. I can insta-buddy with any one also, but until I'm familiar with the area, I would rather it be with someone else that's familiar also. When I suggest to people traveling alone to go with someone that puts a guide in the water it's not because I'm questioning their ability or think it's good to have a baby sitter, I'm suggesting that because at $75 for the dive and $75 to $100 for the DM/buddy, you could have 8 to 10 dives instead of 4 for $300

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

In response to the original post, my first dive post certification, was with a equally first time out, brand new diver, at a site I'd never been to before. I had been taught how to navigate and plan, as well as how to execute the dive plan. This is what an open water certified diver should be able to do. It does not hurt to have an experienced diver with them, but it should not be necessary.

As an instructor, I don't certify them unless they actually can dive independently. Those who let themselves be guided are within their rights to do so, but it should not be needed. I'm against guided dives as the norm.

 

[chrpai]

I did my both my OW (Nov 2000) and AOW (Mar 2001) in Jamaica. After those 10-15 dives or so ( log book long gone ) I started diving with just buddies and haven't dove with a DM since except when required by local law.

I got certified so I would know what I was doing. So that I could plan and execute my own dives. I quickly learned the importance of vetting a potential dive buddy and I also learned that the boat was just a taxi and the rest was up to me. I'm fine giving that advice to the next generation of divers.