Tank Age??

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The newest tank I have was made in 1991 the oldest was made in 1967 all steels, haven't had a problem filling any of them. I do have a AL80 made from the "bad" alloy. I don't use it for diving anymore. I do keep it full and know of 2 LDS that will fill it.
 
And here is the official advisory:

http://phmsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/PHMSA/DownloadableFiles/Files/3al_advisory.pdf

It is inaccurate (lie) for the the LDS to say that "no one will fill a tank that old". The advisory doesn't condem tanks at all. The advisory just spells out the issue and steps to be taken to mitigate and continue using the tanks.

The LDS is choosing to not fill them. I can tell you that shops around me will fill them so feel free to mail them to me. I'll pay for postage. :)
 
All that it is, legaly sanction, money making scam, with VIPs and hydros and no fill lists. :)
BTW have just filled my 1917 tank for a Siebe Gorman Salvus with pure O2.
have a nice dive
 
I use the same dive shop as you for my fills. They are a good shop and reasonable. I do find it odd though that they won't fill a tank that has been hydro'd recently?! This is their policy.

Shouldn't all of us expect our tanks to be safe, period, if they have been recently hydro tested?

How old is to old to have a tank filled ???
i have a tank with original stamp date of 4/78 it was last hydroed 2/12. my lds says no one will fill a tank that old
 
I use the same dive shop as you for my fills. They are a good shop and reasonable. I do find it odd though that they won't fill a tank that has been hydro'd recently?! This is their policy.

Shouldn't all of us expect our tanks to be safe, period, if they have been recently hydro tested?

Pressurized tanks are scary things. Anyone who works in the industry has seen the results of a tank exploding.

To catch SLC in these older aluminum tanks requires an eddy current test. If the sticker indicates an annual Visual Plus, Visual Plus 2 or Visual Eddy testing then the tank SHOULD be safe to use.

What if the tank was inspected at a busy shop and they thought they did the test but didn't? It gets a sticker but not a proper inspection. It happens.

What if the person doing the test had a rough night and doesn't do it proper? I've never used the Visual Plus test tools. They might be harder to use than you might image. As someone who works in Quality Assurance, one of the first cases you learn about is the Therac-25. Technicians were able to do the wrong thing and 6 people died of radiation poisoning. If they can mess that up, it is entirely possible someone can mess up with Visual Plus as well.

Statistically, I probably have better luck winning the lottery than I do having an old tank, properly tested, explode on me but when you see pictures of the damage it does and you think for $150 I'd rather buy a new tank than take that risk.

Personally, if I owned a shop and you brought an old tank in, I'd offer to sell you a new tank below cost if you trade in your old tank for a new tank. I could then recover some of my loss by selling the old tanks for scrap aluminum. I don't know what cost is on a tank but wouldn't it be worth not having to deal with the hassle. Knowing you can bring the new tank to any dive site and they'll fill it must be worth something. Additionally, the old tank will fail at some point. How many more dives are you going to get out of it? Once the tank does fail a Visual Plus inspection it will be worth the scrap metal and nothing else.
 
How old is too old to have a tank filled ???

I know guys in their 60's and 70's that are stil having their tanks filled, so I wouldn't worry Dave, it looks like you still have many more fills to go :wink:
 
If it is a steel tank with current hydro the shop should fill it, but an aluminium tank I would probably not, especially if it is luxfur or us divers. The most common tank you will see is marked 6498, in my experience those tanks have a very high failure rate. In fact about 10 years ago luxfer "recalled" them offering anyone q 50 or 75 dollar credit toward a new tank and they paid return shipping. If a company is willing to put out 75 or 100 toward a 20 year old product that sold for 100 in 1985 when it was sold that tells me they really what them "off the street".
 
If it is a steel tank with current hydro the shop should fill it, but an aluminium tank I would probably not, especially if it is luxfur or us divers. The most common tank you will see is marked 6498, in my experience those tanks have a very high failure rate. In fact about 10 years ago luxfer "recalled" them offering anyone q 50 or 75 dollar credit toward a new tank and they paid return shipping. If a company is willing to put out 75 or 100 toward a 20 year old product that sold for 100 in 1985 when it was sold that tells me they really what them "off the street".
I just want to keep it straight and stick with the facts before this goes downhill.

Facts:

1) 6498 is a special permit number given to Luxfer for production of Al 80 tanks made from 6351- T6 alloy.

2) SP 6498 was one of several special permits that were consolidated under the 3AL standard. Tanks with those permits were all supposed to have been stamped "3AL" at their next requalification - about 20 years ago. It is however still pretty common to find them un stamped.

3) Luxfer never recalled those tanks or any 6351-T6 scuba tanks per se, but they did offer a discount toward a new tank for a limited period of time. The supposed rationale for that articulated above is pretty good evidence of why it does not pay for companies to do that, and Luxfer, not surprisingly, stopped offering the discount. This also occurred in the era when the growth or prevalence of sustained load cracks was not clear, and when that was clarified, the perceived need for a remedy for replacing tanks was no longer present.

4) 6351 T-6 alloy scuba tanks are still DOT approved for service provided they pass requalification which now requires the tank inspector to conduct a visual eddy inspection in addition to the normal visual inspection and hydro test.

I agree with you that there is a failure rate for 6351-T6 tanks, in terms of sustained load cracks being found in the necks of 6351-T6 alloy tanks but it is still low and most importantly:

5) there has not been a single instance of a properly inspected 6351-T6 tank catastrophically failing since eddy current inspection protocols were implemented over a decade ago.

6) Based on field experience the DOT only requires the eddy current inspection even 5 years at requalification of the cylinder. And testing and field experience indicates a typical sustained load crack takes about 8 years to propagate from detection to cylinder failure. There is no substantiated evidence of rapid crack growth.

7) The industry practice was to conduct an eddy current/visual plus inspection every year. This was developed several years prior to the DOT final requirement for 5 year testing but it's still prudent.

The main informed objection (there are several non informed objections) to the use of 6351-T6 alloy tanks is that someone may screw up the eddy current/visual plus inspection and put a tank back in service with an un detected sustained load crack. However, with the DOT and scuba industry standards overlaid on the 8 year time line for crack propagation to the point of catastrophic failure, the crack would have to be missed on at least 1 DOT inspection (possibly 2 depending on timing) and at least 7 scuba industry / local dive shop performed eddy current/visual plus inspections.

So it's remotely possible that a tank could be poorly inspected for 8 consecutive inspections in a row and suddenly explode, but the odds on that are almost infinitely small. The fact that there are still millions of 6351-T6 tanks in service and that none have catastrophically failed due to an SLC in the 10 plus years since eddy current inspections were implemented supports that. So to operate under the assumption that properly inspected 6351-T6 tanks are unsafe to fill borders on the paranoid, but it's not generally paranoia it's just ignorance of the facts or a bias held over from the time when the facts were not clear and no one really knew the risks.

8) the reality is that many dive shops/fill station operators fall in one or other categories above - or just see it as great reason to get customers to buy new tanks. The latter is not likely if the tanks are not already on the show room floor as the profit in tanks is quite low, but if they happen to have half a pallet of not getting any younger tanks sitting along the wall for sale, you have to consider it.

Personally, I probably would not buy a 6351-T6 tank at this point, but I would not turn one I own into scrap metal and I am not hesitant to fill a properly inspected 6351-T6 tank.
 
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The main informed objection (there are several non informed objections) to the use of 6351-T6 alloy tanks is that someone may screw up the eddy current/visual plus inspection and put a tank back in service with an un detected sustained load crack. However, with the DOT and scuba industry standards overlaid on the 8 year time line for crack propagation to the point of catastrophic failure, the crack would have to be missed on at least 1 DOT inspection (possibly 2 depending on timing) and at least 7 scuba industry / local dive shop performed eddy current/visual plus inspections.

So it's remotely possible that a tank could be poorly inspected for 8 consecutive inspections in a row and suddenly explode, but the odds on that are almost infinitely small. The fact that there are still millions of 6351-T6 tanks in service and that none have catastrophically failed due to an SLC in the 10 plus years since eddy current inspections were implemented supports that. So to operate under the assumption that properly inspected 6351-T6 tanks are unsafe to fill borders on the paranoid, but it's not generally paranoia it's just ignorance of the facts or a bias held over from the time when the facts were not clear and no one really knew the risks.

Good post but you missed one reason which does not border on the paranoid. Most the 6351-T6 tanks I see getting sold have been out of hydro for 10 to 20 years. The tank has been hidden in the back of a garage or in the basement. They clean up, find the tank and decide to sell it. The thing has been full of air since they quit diving. This means they only need to have one bad hydro and you have a ticking time bomb. This is a real scenario. If you go with the 5 years until visual eddy testing that could be 15 to 25 years since it was properly inspected. Well passed the 8 year mark.

Just missing one hydro and having the tank sit for 5 years plus ONE bad inspection puts us at over 10 years since a proper inspection.

The vast majority of 6351-T6 tanks I see for sale are like this. Someone decides to give his tank to his grandson. The grandson has a lot of trouble getting someone to fill it. So he puts it on Craigslist or eBay in order to get some money to buy a new tank.

The people who have these tanks and have been actively using them since the 1980s probably know enough people that they get their tank filled. If Mike (guy I know who has been diving for 27 years) brought in his 6351-T6 and asked to have it filled, it would get filled. We all know Mike and know he can vouch for the history of the tank because he is the original owner. But if you just bought it from some guy at a yard sale or off Craiglist, you have no idea about the history of the tank. Now if we did the visual eddy inspection or you had the inspection done by Tim's Dive Shop and it passed, then we'd fill it.

It is just like if you bring in your tank at the end of the season and tell us you've been using nothing but O2 clean air, we cannot confirm this. The shop I work at does partial pressure nitrox fills. This means we start with 100% O2 then top up with air. The shop owner has had a tank flash on him because someone's O2 clean tank was dirty. Now no one got hurt. So shops continue to trust people in cases like this. They are rare AND the consequences aren't life threatening.
 

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