Dive operator: "We won't let you ..."

[grantwiscour]

So you have done AOW including a deep dive but not a stand alone deep specialty. From a common requirements that AOW card is all that most care about despite it being a a very superficial treatment of the topic. In a good many cases it's the common ground that insurance companies can manage around. It makes an attempt to keep those that are clueless away from certain sites. I don't have any statistics but a very small percentage go on to take a deep specialty unless they are on their way to something more advanced. What is in between is paying your dues with a gradual progression deeper and deeper.

This puts you in a situation of being theoretically as qualified as a good many other divers that will be down there with you. Many AOW deep dives (to use your words) lead you by the hand as you experience something beyond 60 feet. In and of itself does this prepare you for you planned vacation diving? I don't know. You and the rest of your party need to look in the mirror and consider gas planning, awareness, overall buddy skills since these dives will turn the importance up a notch. If any aspect of completing the dive relies on the DM I would start having second thoughts. If the bunch of you feel you have your act together then have fun. You don't need to be aces but you need to know enough to answer the question for yourself.

The operator will be able to filter divers based on performance on shallower sites but do you want to count on that?

Voice of reason.... Thousands of divers with comparable skill are doing this very thing every day. There is an occasional incident or accident and plenty of close calls and lucky moments we hardly hear about. With a professional staff and many fellow divers in warm clear water a lot of the worst cases risks are reduced but your will still be along way from the surface.

+1 to Spectrum's post. Analyze your abilities and determine which dives are within your skill sets and desires. Oftentimes, we use a dive guide when we are diving unfamiliar sites to maximize the dive. I may be missing the best part of the reef and not realize it...sometimes it's a good idea to get a local (guide or dive buddy) to show you around.

 

[John_B]

Its been brought up before (by me) and the replies indicated that they might have done a deep dive but not the DEEP SPECIALITY?

I know that's what you want the OP to have said, but this was what he actually wrote in the first post in this thread:

We are novice divers, about 50 dives each. We did the AOW class but not the "Deep Diving" portion.

 

[Tigerman]

I CBA browsing through all of the thread atm, but it was discussed later in the thread.. It seemed like there was some confusion with regards to the AOW deep dive vs the deep dive specialty..

 

[jrutigl]

I'm not sure of this is the right forum for this but I have learned alot from the forum here so I'll post.

What do people think of the exchange between me and a certain dive operator? We are thinking of going there but we want to make sure the dives are appropriate for us. My query first, followed by their response:



My query: We are novice divers, about 50 dives each. We did the AOW class but not the "Deep Diving" portion. It seems to me from reading your website that several dive sites would be better done if we did get that deeper experience before coming. We would really like to see some sharks and other larger creatures so I guess that deep diving cert is important - ?


Their response: Wedo not require an AOW certification incl. the deep adventure dive to let you do Deep Dives. Once the dive crew has seen you in the water diving and feels comfortable with your diving skills, you will certainly be able to do the deeper dives as well.
We will never put you in a situation you are not comfortable with and would work with you before you go on a deep dive.



Thanks in advance for your comments.

- Bill

I have been diving for 50 years. I have watched the certification process migrate from one which focused on truly testing one's skills before certification was issued to one which almost guarantees a certificate of competency upon payment of a fee.

The problem with the commercialization of certification is that commercial motivation is to issue certificates, not to refuse to issue because of incompetency.

Don't rely on any commercial certification or statement like we won't expose you to something you can't handle. Check the reports of dive related accidents and death. In a substantial portion of these, diver inexperience is quoted as a or the cause. The incidents occurred under the supervision of dive operators who "won't expose you to..." and involved divers certified by the recognized agencies.

I have seen PADI dive masters, certified as such after 50 a 60 dives, with the best equipment, computers, etc blow through depth limits, requiring deco, ignore the computer warning, surface and get read to make the next dive, with their computer blinking and beeping.

I have seen Certified instructors who couldn't get close to maintaining buoyancy because they were underweighted. I routinely see divers at difficult dive sites who simply shouldn't have been allowed to dive the site because the check out dive demonstrated clearly that they didn't have the skills.

You are responsible for protecting yourself. You first of all should analyze your skills. Do you understand the changes in diving between above and below 60 ft? Can you maintain boyancy at your current depth limit? Depending on location, the light below 60 can become dramatically darker. How is your air consumption? Are you comfortable with going deeper...comfortable, not desirous. Are you experienced in the specific dive conditions. - temperature, current, visibility, sea life, drifts dives, hooking up, etc.

Obviously something's require formal training -- tech diving, nitro, rebreather, rescue, cave etc. My point is completion of a certification does not guarantee competency. Dive operators are biased towards letting you dive and dive certification is designed to make you pass. You are the best and last decider of whether you should make a dive.

 

[AbyssalPlains]

there are no SCUBA police- unless you hire a Divemaster for any reason.

Even then there is no scuba police. I'm a Divemaster, but do I see myself as scuba police? Heck no. People are responsible for diving within their ability and experience.

 

[billt4sf]

completion of a certification does not guarantee competency.

Agree.

Dive operators are biased towards letting you dive and dive certification is designed to make you pass.

Agree.

You are the best and last decider of whether you should make a dive.

Agree, with the qualification that new divers (and some not-so-new divers) aren't qualified to make these judgments about their own skill level. We simply don't have the required information or expertise. As an example, see this link:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...-worked-out-great-now-were-really-scared.html



Thanks for the great discussion!

- Bill

 

[billt4sf]

new divers (and some not-so-new divers) aren't qualified to make these judgments about their own skill level. We simply don't have the required information or expertise.

Some folks on this thread stated that individual divers are the ones that should decide whether they are qualified to do a given dive. I agree, but there are qualifications....

Another example of the simple FACT that newish divers are not qualified to make this assessment is covered in the Summer 2012 issue of DAN's magazine "Alert Diver". The article titled "You'll be OK" recounts the loss of a diver who contacted a dive shop that was running a charter and recounted her experience level, and told the famous line "You'll be OK". She was paired up on the boat with another newish diver and an instructor who was also training an instructor trainee. It was her first boat dive, limited viz and no light. Briefly, they got separated from the instructor, the buddy didn't stay close and saw her unconscious in the water, but he didn't know how to ascend with her, didn't release weights or inflate the BCD, and she died. Both divers relied on someone else's opinion that the dive was appropriate for them.

Newish divers aren't trained in good buddy protocol, nor in simple rescue techniques like dropping weights. Instructors constantly tell us "Follow me" which does not train people in being a good buddy. (I have had instructors or divemasters swim away from me while I was helping my buddy with a minor issue plenty of times.) That makes almost any dive "above your experience level" unless an experienced diver is close by.

My opinion.

- Bill

 

[Wookie]

snip.....That makes almost any dive "above your experience level" unless an experienced diver is close by.

My opinion.

- Bill

That experienced diver is called a mentor. You'd be surprised to find us most everywhere. Most of us are more than happy to dive with less experienced folk. Ask around on the boat, or at the shop for one, and keep a questioning attitude. Be prepared to sift through a lot of BS to find the grains of gold. Kinda like ScubaBoard....

 

[CT-Rich]

Seems to me that there are more relevent questions to be addressed about the dive. depth adds a new component for a dive, are there any other conditions that might make you uncomfortable with this dive profile? any issues with current, visibility, open ocean, boat entry/exit? If depth is the only new factor, this may be a good dive for you. If there are other stressors tasks that will be impacting you, maybe it isn't. If the dive operator feels that you are capable of doing the dive in a safe manner and is willing to take you out, great, have fun, prepare fully and don't worry about the PADI tax (my apologies to any instructors for that jibe).

 

[Lorenzoid]

That experienced diver is called a mentor. You'd be surprised to find us most everywhere. Most of us are more than happy to dive with less experienced folk. Ask around on the boat, or at the shop for one, and keep a questioning attitude. Be prepared to sift through a lot of BS to find the grains of gold. Kinda like ScubaBoard....

That sounds wonderful, but how often do we hear divers lament that they were paired with some newbie insta-buddy who had no idea what he was doing? I'm sure there are experienced divers who actually don't mind being paired with newbies, especially if the newbie make it known that he's seeking an experienced buddy to help him learn, but it seems to me that's a lot to expect from both parties. The newbie has to swallow his ego by asking for help, and the experienced diver might have to sacrifice his precious bottom time. And if I, as the newbie, "ask around at the shop," aren't the shop people the same ones who just told me "you'll be okay"? Mentoring is ideal, but it's not easy to find an experienced diver to be paired up with at the last minute. As a person often in need of an insta-buddy, it has seemed to me that the experienced divers are the ones who are already paired up--they travel with their buddies--and it's typically the less experienced divers who are left to be paired with each other. I suppose if the newbie lives near an operator he dives with on a regular basis, or travels with a dive club he belongs to, it's a different story. Unfortunately, many of us take a weekend trip somewhere and have little choice but to roll the dice.