Sounds like a good reason to invest your time and a little money in a cave course. May open a whole new world of diving for you.
A question about the devils eye/ear entrances
- Thread starter SWAMPY459
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Amazing the attitude on this guy. After all of the other, ample, training I've received I can honestly say that I'm enjoying the cave diver training process more than any of them. How one can look at training through this lens is truly amazing to me. This is supposed to be fun...
I see this post as very analogous to:
I have no interest in flying commercial airplanes, so I don't see any need to spend thousands of dollars on a pilot's license. I just want to fly a Cesna in broad daylight with no guages. Can anyone tell me how to do this?
I have no interest in flying commercial airplanes, so I don't see any need to spend thousands of dollars on a pilot's license. I just want to fly a Cesna in broad daylight with no guages. Can anyone tell me how to do this?
PfcAJ
Contributor
THIS is exactly why I'm opposed to "OW Safe" caverns and other such nonsense.
Ginnie Springs has given you a false sense of ability. Cave(rn) diving is really fun, and imo, quite easy when everything goes well. When it doesn't, the situation goes downhill in a hurry.
There is a concept called the 'incident pit' that I will attempt to describe for you.
Imagine a pit. More like a drain, really, where there is a point within it upon which anything going into the pit cannot be recovered. Like those big, plastic, funnel shaped things at the mall, the one where you roll a coin into it and it spirals around and around, eventually dropping into a bucket below (usually for charity). When the coin is spiraling around the top, you can easily snatch it and prevent it from going into the bucket. But as it approaches the center, it moves faster and faster, and just bumping it means it falls into the void.
The incident pit is much like this. Simple problems (for a trained diver) are easily managed. A dislodged mask, for instance, can be replaced and cleared without issue. The more serious the problem (freeflowing regulator, for instance), the farther down the incident pit you find yourself. Simple problems can often compound into more serious problems. Only training can keep you from that point of no return.
For OW diving, the 'point of no return' is somewhat hard to get to, because the surface is an option. In a cave, you completely remove that option. This is critical.
There's a lot going on inside a cave, all of which put even cave divers a little ways into the pit. Good training (and proper equipment, as well as a solid buddy) keep problems from escalating to an irrecoverable point. Entering a cave (and the dive you describe is a proper cave dive) without training puts you quite far into the pit. One little thing, and you're in a world of hurt. A wrong turn, a silt out, an entanglement, a gas failure, a stuck SPG, even a weightbelt issue can result in drowning since simply ascending is no longer an option: You're committed to coming out they way you came in (or making the traverse from one entrance to another). A simple thing like your mask dislodging can turn into a siltout, contributing to entanglement. The incident pit is quite slippery, and its a lot harder to climb out of the deeper you get. The clock is ticking down there.
What a cavern couse can give you is a sensible, safety oriented approach to cavern diving. It will no longer be a game of chance, but a well thought out and executed dive with a focus on enjoying the environment while possessing the skills, knowledge, and equipment to make it home if something goes wrong.
Over 500 divers have died in caves. Most of them were open water divers wanting to 'take a peek' and see 'just a little' or do a 'simple dive'. I can relate, that desire prompted me to take cave training. But I took the training not because not having the card impeded my ability to go where I wanted, but because I wanted to know how to do it safely and come back alive if things took a turn for the worse. I hope you make the same choice.
BDSC
Contributor
All I can say is I want to go fishing with SWAMPY459. He's gotta be one hell of a fisherman!
---------- Post added November 19th, 2012 at 12:57 PM ----------
Hey, if you want the cave experience without having to take the course you should plan a trip to Cozumel for diving and then do a day trip over to Dos Ojos. There they will take you thru the two sections. We did that one year and loved it. Didn't make me want to take up cave diving but satisfied my desire to see what it was all about. Well worth the money!
---------- Post added November 19th, 2012 at 12:57 PM ----------
Hey, if you want the cave experience without having to take the course you should plan a trip to Cozumel for diving and then do a day trip over to Dos Ojos. There they will take you thru the two sections. We did that one year and loved it. Didn't make me want to take up cave diving but satisfied my desire to see what it was all about. Well worth the money!
What a cavern class will give you is a better understanding of the issues. Taking the class may make you somewhat less likely to jam a reel or get entangled in your own guideline. Taking the class and doing well may make you a bit less likely to blow the viz, if you wander into the wrong passage by mistake and get into the silt. And if your instructor is persuasive, clear and compelling, you may understand why going into a cave with a single tank and a single regulator is a gamble most people are unwilling to take.
It appears that you really want to do this dive -- I don't know why; I don't find either the slot at the Ear or the rocky passage out the Eye to be compelling, especially compared with other sections of that cave. But you've been offered a class that CAN make something you want to do, which is inherently too high risk for most of us to contemplate or recommend it, somewhat less dangerous, and if you take Superlyte up on his offer, you might find you actually ENJOY the training, and even find it improves your open water diving. And you might also find that you like the cavern environment enough to want to get the training to do the dive you contemplate -- and much more -- with the greatest degree of safety that such dives can have.
I like the way AJ put it -- just going into the cave puts you a little way into the incident pit. Most people think those of us who cave dive are crazy, and they may well be right. But if you are going to do something which seems absurdly dangerous to the rest of the world, it just seems reasonable to do it as safely as it can be done, and the training programs have a pretty good track record of allowing the majority of people who go through them to cave dive and survive it.
It appears that you really want to do this dive -- I don't know why; I don't find either the slot at the Ear or the rocky passage out the Eye to be compelling, especially compared with other sections of that cave. But you've been offered a class that CAN make something you want to do, which is inherently too high risk for most of us to contemplate or recommend it, somewhat less dangerous, and if you take Superlyte up on his offer, you might find you actually ENJOY the training, and even find it improves your open water diving. And you might also find that you like the cavern environment enough to want to get the training to do the dive you contemplate -- and much more -- with the greatest degree of safety that such dives can have.
I like the way AJ put it -- just going into the cave puts you a little way into the incident pit. Most people think those of us who cave dive are crazy, and they may well be right. But if you are going to do something which seems absurdly dangerous to the rest of the world, it just seems reasonable to do it as safely as it can be done, and the training programs have a pretty good track record of allowing the majority of people who go through them to cave dive and survive it.
To the OP, why do you feel that you are able to do this, when certified cave divers are telling you not to? You are asking for trouble, If you aren't willing to learn to do this safely, please stay out. What about the guys you are putting at risk when they have to recover your body? It is very easy to get lost in that part of the cave, it really is not as simple as two left turns. Just because you have dove the ballroom in no way what so ever qualifies you to dive the Devils system. Also keep in mind that it is against Ginnie Springs rules for non certified Cave divers to enter the Devils system with a light. Maybe someone should contact the park so they can keep an eye out for you, that way no one has to go find you later.
Really? You've never seen a pilot hand the controls to someone who has never flown before and let them fly it for a bit without actually landing the plane or taking off???? I've seen pilots do that.
---------- Post added November 19th, 2012 at 01:37 PM ----------
Show me one time where I said I was going to break a rule at ginnie springs outdoors.
in the analogy, you would also be taking off and landing, unless you are talking about someone else getting you in and out of the cave
JamesK
Contributor
Ok, I will be back in town next Sunday. We can meet at Cave Country Dive Shop and drink coke and discuss your "dive plan". No body will bash you, no body will cause you bodily harm. We might just open your eyes up to what you are wanting to do. I will even go do a Ginnie Ballroom dive with you, even though I hate the fact that Ginnie allows this.
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