Honest question for you dive masters instructors out there

[NAM001]

I have never felt the need to ask. When i pay for a charter on a boat I expect the captain to ask me for proof of my certification to make the trip as well as asking the DM's for proof of thier certification prior to hireing them. In other words the DM's are working for the captain and the captain is hired by me. The only one i think i have the right to question qualification's off is the captain's. and unless he is driving by a field compass adn checkng depth by using a pole, i dont question his ability.

 

[dpaustex]

As an instructor, I really only dive with my students. While I am on a trip that I am leading through the shop, I do give gear setup briefings, but leave it up to the specific boats DM to do the dive briefing.

Often, you can "tell" who is an instructor/DM, etc, by the fact they're not throwing their weight around. If people ask me (on my personal trips), I might let on I am an instructor, and will offer - if asked - them some pointers.

As far as "checking your tank", this is very, very standard on most dive boats. The deck hands do a double-check to make sure you've opened your tank. I, for one, assemble my own gear, check my own gear, etc., before the dive, but will turn both my tank, and my buddies, completely off until we get to the dive site. One time, I had a dive buddy - who professed extensive knowledge - actually turn my air totally off, then 1/2 turn "on", before we splashed (on a trip I was leading in the Flower Gardens). As you know, your 1st stage will work fairly well with only 1/2 turn "on' - until you get farther down. At around 90 feet, my T2 was breathing kind of ragged. I kept motioning to my buddy to check my air valve, and she couldn't figure out what I was asking. I handed her my camera, took my BC off underwater (around 90 feet deep), and found my valve almost off. I solved the problem myself. THAT is why the DMs check pretty much everyone's air before splashing, because some people don't know open from closed on a valve.

But as far as the rest of the gear, I don't know why they would touch it, unless you looked rigged incorrectly. I've had students assure me they're properly geared, only to see BC inflator hoses not connected, regulators improperly installed (the best was someone had the regs on the left side, no inflator attached)(fortunately, this was still in their pool sessions).

You shouldn't be taking any of this personally (a DM touching your gear), as they want to collectively ensure the entire group is properly geared up, so as not to cause any problems during the dive, in which they would have to call the dive for everyone. I find it highly annoying when I am on a required guided dive (sanctuary areas) and someone hasn't a clue what they're doing. Years ago, I was in the Galapagos on a liveaboard, and there were some Russian divers that were awful (only a few in their group, the rest were awesome). Somehow, these people had given false dive resumes, saying they had extensive experience in high current, limited visibility, and deep diving (they didn't). After our first real dive with some of the folks, there was almost a mutiny on the boat, that got the captain involved. The "real" divers did not want to boat with the wannabes (many of whom had horrible buoyancy skills), and insisted we not be put in the same group. The captain agreed, and the experienced group dove together the entire time.

So....with all of that, ask yourself if you are part of the problem. I have never had pushy DMs, deckhands, etc. Every place I have been in the world, the people have been very helpful (after all, the DMs are working almost exclusively for tips). Only one bad experience in Cozumel (with CozumelsBestDive) did I think the people were idiots (pretty obvious the guy in the water on the private night dive was clueless - I had to show him where the reef was, after he insisted on swimming up-current for five minutes while he was obviously lost, with no compass). If you're getting continually "checked out" beyond the tank valve, then odds are you might be presenting yourself as something the DMs are picking up as somehow under-qualified (they have a "nose" for that). This isn't a "flame", just pointing out that if there is a trend in this, you need to ask yourself that question.

The DMs are there to make sure everyone has a good time and - more importantly - it's done safely. Each of you is supposed to be an autonomous diver. Sadly, I have been on boats with people that have been diving for a very long time, and they are some of the worst divers I have seen (e.g. slamming the bottom, dropping onto coral, touching things, kicking coral, etc.). Even as an Instructor, I am always looking to be a better diver...looking for that perfect Zen, where I am moving with the underwater world as part of it, not some invader that is there scaring the fish, or damaging the environment. Hopefully, everyone is looking for that, where their entries, exits, and visits are movement poetry undewater.

 

[Beanbag1]

As an instructor, I really only dive with my students. While I am on a trip that I am leading through the shop, I do give gear setup briefings, but leave it up to the specific boats DM to do the dive briefing.

Often, you can "tell" who is an instructor/DM, etc, by the fact they're not throwing their weight around. If people ask me (on my personal trips), I might let on I am an instructor, and will offer - if asked - them some pointers.

As far as "checking your tank", this is very, very standard on most dive boats. The deck hands do a double-check to make sure you've opened your tank. I, for one, assemble my own gear, check my own gear, etc., before the dive, but will turn both my tank, and my buddies, completely off until we get to the dive site. One time, I had a dive buddy - who professed extensive knowledge - actually turn my air totally off, then 1/2 turn "on", before we splashed (on a trip I was leading in the Flower Gardens). As you know, your 1st stage will work fairly well with only 1/2 turn "on' - until you get farther down. At around 90 feet, my T2 was breathing kind of ragged. I kept motioning to my buddy to check my air valve, and she couldn't figure out what I was asking. I handed her my camera, took my BC off underwater (around 90 feet deep), and found my valve almost off. I solved the problem myself. THAT is why the DMs check pretty much everyone's air before splashing, because some people don't know open from closed on a valve.

But as far as the rest of the gear, I don't know why they would touch it, unless you looked rigged incorrectly. I've had students assure me they're properly geared, only to see BC inflator hoses not connected, regulators improperly installed (the best was someone had the regs on the left side, no inflator attached)(fortunately, this was still in their pool sessions).

You shouldn't be taking any of this personally (a DM touching your gear), as they want to collectively ensure the entire group is properly geared up, so as not to cause any problems during the dive, in which they would have to call the dive for everyone. I find it highly annoying when I am on a required guided dive (sanctuary areas) and someone hasn't a clue what they're doing. Years ago, I was in the Galapagos on a liveaboard, and there were some Russian divers that were awful (only a few in their group, the rest were awesome). Somehow, these people had given false dive resumes, saying they had extensive experience in high current, limited visibility, and deep diving (they didn't). After our first real dive with some of the folks, there was almost a mutiny on the boat, that got the captain involved. The "real" divers did not want to boat with the wannabes (many of whom had horrible buoyancy skills), and insisted we not be put in the same group. The captain agreed, and the experienced group dove together the entire time.

So....with all of that, ask yourself if you are part of the problem. I have never had pushy DMs, deckhands, etc. Every place I have been in the world, the people have been very helpful (after all, the DMs are working almost exclusively for tips). Only one bad experience in Cozumel (with CozumelsBestDive) did I think the people were idiots (pretty obvious the guy in the water on the private night dive was clueless - I had to show him where the reef was, after he insisted on swimming up-current for five minutes while he was obviously lost, with no compass). If you're getting continually "checked out" beyond the tank valve, then odds are you might be presenting yourself as something the DMs are picking up as somehow under-qualified (they have a "nose" for that). This isn't a "flame", just pointing out that if there is a trend in this, you need to ask yourself that question.

The DMs are there to make sure everyone has a good time and - more importantly - it's done safely. Each of you is supposed to be an autonomous diver. Sadly, I have been on boats with people that have been diving for a very long time, and they are some of the worst divers I have seen (e.g. slamming the bottom, dropping onto coral, touching things, kicking coral, etc.). Even as an Instructor, I am always looking to be a better diver...looking for that perfect Zen, where I am moving with the underwater world as part of it, not some invader that is there scaring the fish, or damaging the environment. Hopefully, everyone is looking for that, where their entries, exits, and visits are movement poetry undewater.

Woo-hoo. Three cheers for Mr Perfect...

 

[Dhboner]

It's all about communication (as is almost everything). When I am on a dive boat in the Caribbean, I make it a point to tell the DM that I prefer to set up my own gear but that he is welcome to "give it a visual once over" if it makes him feel better. After a dive or two it's generally no longer an issue. My dive buddy and will always do a proper pre-dive check (GUE EDGE) but I honestly don't mind a local DM as a third set of eyes.

It's never an issue diving locally but I accept that it is pretty much standard procedure on Caribbean dive boats. I have better things to get annoyed about than an enthusiastic DM trying to do his job.

 

[farsidefan1]

When I read posts blaming dive ops for divers in their care getting separated from their buddies and drowning While the dive guide is leading 6+ other divers, many of whom are doing their own thing (photographers etc.) I cant really blame them for wanting to check out everyone's gear. There are some in here who regularly attack every dive incident as the fault of the dive op. The dive ops are to some extend aware of this situation and want to protect themselves from such blame.

 

[antattack]

Dear OP, I'll be happy to show my DM card. It's kinda scratched up and can you believe the haircut I have in that picture?

OK, now help me think through where the tension that started this comes from. I imagine most of it is coming from liability.

Let's start with the fact that I don't really want to touch your gear, ever. I don't want to carry it, connect it up, fix it or loan you my spares; I want to go diving. Preferably a safe dive. I'm even happy just to watch you dive if I get to see the pictures and hear the stories over a beer. If I have touch your gear so that we can safely go diving, with your permission, I will.

But as soon as I take on the role of dive pro, if you get hurt, you can sue me. If I didn't deliver a reasonable standard of care, you might even win and take everything I own. If I lose our home, 401K and cars my wife will be very unhappy with me. So let's see what we can do to avoid that distraction.

A good defense when being sued is to say "There is an effective standard. I provided my services as a reasonable person would, according to the effective standard." Procedures executed without a standard make definition of "reasonable" unpredictable and increase liability. The lower you are on the totem pole of the dive profession, the more likely it is you will have to execute the gritty bits of exercising the reasonable standard of care- like making sure divers avoid the rare accidental plunge into water without an active air source while overweighted with wing deflated.

Digression: This is why the certifying agencies define all those standards. Partly to ensure a level of safe training for the student, but also partly to help manage risk for instructors and DMs. If I executed your training to a standard known to be effective, then a judge and jury will likely view the service providers actions "reasonable". It's interesting to think about the role of certifying agencies. I could teach a new diver how to dive. There are lots of places to buy gear and get fills without a C-Card. So why bother paying an agency for a card at all? They have developed valuable, documented, effective standards. Everyone's risk is lowered because of the standards created by the certifying agency.

The Point: If a boat captain has defined a standard that says "DM will check valves before divers enter water" and I don't follow it, I'm taking on a big liability. The captain has reduced his legal risk a little because he defined a "reasonable standard practice". If the boat captain doesn't have a standard for valve checking, we still have liability. I manage that liability when helping divers off of a boat by asking "Are you all done with your buddy check?" if not I ask "do you want me to check you?" and then have whatever conversation is needed. In effect, I set my own "reasonable" standard to manage my liability while achieving my goal of having fun and being mostly helpful and invisible until needed.

I don't want to touch your gear, I just want to go diving, then walk over to the pub for some chips, a beer and hear some fish stories.

"Wanna see my card? No problem! Hey, is that the new HalcyCheck thousand watt light? Cool! I want to see how it works underwater, when can we go?"

 

[DaleC]

Taking on responsibility that isn't yours is a funny way to lessen liability in my books.

As a charter, you are responsible to transport me to and from a dive location safely and not to take me to a site that is beyond my level of training or unsafe due to conditions (and to have appropriate safety equipment onboard along with trained personnel for it's use). The former is verified by my presenting a valid C-card and/or logbook. Because you are taking me to a dive site unknown to me you are also responsible to give me a reasonably detailed dive briefing. This may extend to providing a DM to dive with me, acting as a guide.

The only way this changes is if I hire you specifically to DM me to address a skills deficit on my part. Then the relationship changes. Or, if a charter intentionally assumes a divers responsibility in order to provide a luxury type service.

My responsibility is to follow your instructions, my training and to dive in a safe manner. This includes doing a pre-dive check. Jumping in without my air on is my failure not yours. This is easily defended because, as you say, the standards to which someone is trained are clearly defined by the agency that issued the card.

As soon as you touch someones gear you are assuming their role and letting them off the hook. No wonder they may want to sue you - in fact they should, because you are doing something you shouldn't do. You've overridden and nullified their training unilaterally. What excuse do you have that suggests you do that for capable certified divers? Be careful of suggesting there is no way you can rely on them being capable because that opens a whole new avenue of liability. Was that clearly defined in your standards? Did the Captain train you to be a DM? Why did you accept his definition of safe diving practices. Were they different from your training? In court, what legality will you fall back on for making that decision? a lawyer would have a field day with someone who assumes too much because they assumed others knew too little.

Consider that once you go down that path you leave the door open to interpretation for also possibly being responsible for checking their gas mixtures, not just what is written on the tank but actually analyzing it. Did you ensure their gear was functional? How about their health? Had they been drinking the night before or just arrived on a flight? It's a slippery slope that always leaves you open to blame for someone else's irresponsibility. I could state that I jumped in with 50lb's of lead on but seeing as the DM was checking air I assumed he/she would check that too. Using your assumption of responsibility how would you defend against that.

To limit liability you really only need to do two things properly. Verify certification and clearly remind divers to dive according to their training. Offer help if they request it but always put the ball back in their court where it belongs.

 

[rogngirls]

Dale, it may be stupid, but it kind of goes along the lines of someone idiot suing mcdonalds for spilling coffee in their lap while they are driving, and winning!!! Where do you sign a waver when you go in the drive thru and get your coffee??? And I am not intrusive, but yes I will ask see thier card, and I will look over their gear before they get in the water, and I always always check to make sure their tank is on. and yes you hire me to guide you, and show you a pleasurable dive, but you also hire me to help keep you relatively safe, and I will do so on both counts. You also need to remember that although it maybe different with PADI or NAUI, SSI enforces much stricter guidelines than other companies, as well as the dive shop that I work for, their insurance liability has standards as well. No I wont go over your gear as it lays there, but you can bet I will look you over, and correct any issues I see before i let you in the water, simply because i will also have to be the one to bail your A** out of the jam at 80'. So it being inhospitable if you to want to call it, safety is my first and primary goal and responsibility, and I will not compramise that for anybody or any reason.

 

[tphelps]

If a diver asked for my credentials then I would oblige them and show them. But I also would take a bit of offense and back off because clearly they feel that they can take care of themselves.

That being said, even though I am an instructor, I always accept DMs and other instructors checking my gear and make sure that my air is on. I know a few, dare I say, arrogant instructors that feel they are superior. Heck I even admit to being in that mood sometimes. But that is where you get careless and make a mistake, so I always welcome advice and tips...even from newly certified divers. Because there is no such thing as doing too many safety checks and if they are wrong, it is a good teaching opportunity for me. I hope that helps!

 

[DaleC]

All I am saying is that you have two choices. liability wise. Either a defense based on the divers certification being meaningful or, that you suspected it was not and knew you had to compensate for that. The first leaves you out of the loop of their responsibilities. The second ropes you into every other aspect of their diving. What you are suggesting, by your actions, is that you are required to check peoples air because you know they are not competent to do so themselves.
Once that is admitted, you will have to defend why you took them diving at all. Any incident now becomes your responsibility.

In our neck of the woods, charters are not expected to intrude on divers personal kit. They take you to the site but you dive - a clearly defined line of responsibilities. That is the standard. They help, they assist, but it is a courtesy, not a requirement.