Article: Self Reliance and Tech Diving

[Dr. Lecter]

I believe this is dangerous, Rennaker was dangerous, and I would do my best to let the "blank slate" new divers hear that some of the very best divers ( WKPP) consider this "Every man for himself" style of diving to be reprehensible.

Where's the unique--i.e., different from rec divers generally reading about diving beyond their training--danger? Are new divers somehow more likely to unthinkingly jump in solo than they are to try deco or wreck penetration without being ready to do so, just because someone wrote about diving solo/past NDLs/in wrecks?

I'm lost as to your vague description of two or more persons agreeing ahead of time to dive without looking to the other(s) for rescue as "reprehensible". Is it reprehensible to plan to go in opposite directions in a massive wreck like the Doria, thereby effectively precluding the other diver from asking you for help? Or is it only reprehensible to plan to dive together, but without reserving sufficient gas to support two divers all the way to the surface from any point in the dive, thereby potentially leading to hard choices that physical separation would preclude?

I'll agree that going solo diving with someone who thinks you're their buddy would be reprehensible, but I don't think that's at issue here.

 

[danvolker]

Harsh mindset??? Really? Let me be clear, if you have nothing to breathe, or nothing you feel like breathing at the time, and you jump me for my regulator, I will fight you for it, and I will win. Period. It is totally unacceptable, unnecessary, and dangerous, for any diver to jump another diver for gas, and place both lives in serious danger. What could be more dangerous? Seriously?

Chatterton, in 40 years of diving, I have never "needed" a buddies air....However, I would consider this attitude to be so disgusting, that it would call for a confrontation.

---------- Post added February 13th, 2013 at 08:21 PM ----------

Where's the unique--i.e., different from rec divers generally reading about diving beyond their training--danger? Are new divers somehow more likely to unthinkingly jump in solo than they are to try deco or wreck penetration without being ready to do so, just because someone wrote about diving solo/past NDLs/in wrecks?

I'm lost as to your vague description of two or more persons agreeing ahead of time to dive without looking to the other(s) for rescue as "reprehensible". Is it reprehensible to plan to go in opposite directions in a massive wreck like the Doria, thereby effectively precluding the other diver from asking you for help? Or is it only reprehensible to plan to dive together, but without reserving sufficient gas to support two divers all the way to the surface from any point in the dive, thereby potentially leading to hard choices that physical separation would preclude?

I'll agree that going solo diving with someone who thinks you're their buddy would be reprehensible, but I don't think that's at issue here.

We are not on the same page..... I am saying that if you both agree to be buddies, you stay together on the wreck, and your air is your buddies air, and vice versa.

The only way [someone with this mindset] can morally be allowed on a boat, is if he makes it clear to all other divers, that he is no one's buddy, and that he would not offer air to anyone in need. The reason for this, is that most divers believe in the goodness of other divers, and the common belief that sharing air is a responsibility all divers share, for an OOA diver.

 

[Chatterton]

[This reminds me of] a guy named Bill Rennaker....a guy quite infamous in Cave diving circles, for the seminars and articles he put out, directly stating " Every man for himself".
I believe this is dangerous, Rennaker was dangerous, and I would do my best to let the "blank slate" new divers hear that some of the very best divers ( WKPP) consider this "Every man for himself" style of diving to be reprehensible.
When you find someone like this, you don't dive with them, period.

Jajajajajajaja





Every man (or woman) responsible for him/herself!! There I said it. Hide the kids.

Yes, I am dangerous. And Evil!!!! You are kind of like

 

[Dr. Lecter]

most divers believe in the goodness of other divers, and the common belief that sharing air is a responsibility all divers share, for an OOA diver.

I suppose this is what it really comes down to: can two or more divers agree ahead of time to a dive plan that renders that "common belief" inherently unsafe? If they do, regardless of goodness, beyond a certain point sharing gas will result (at best) in two divers blowing off significant deco so that one doesn't drown/blow off even more deco. Since there are precious few people for whom I'd willingly risk paralysis or death because of their poor planning/misfortune, I won't agree with the earlier suggestion that two chamber rides are better than one drowning. YMMV.

I'm happy to assist an OOA when doing so is possible safely and, if I have the gas to complete what I consider a safe contingency ascent while sharing with them, I would do so all the way to the surface. It would be reprehensible for me not to do so. When it comes to fighting an OOA for my 2nd stage, I probably wouldn't under any but the most dire circumstances only because the best way for me to stay safe in that mess is to calm them down by letting them keep it.

But it would be equally reprehensible for them to refuse my signals when I look at my gauges and computer/timer and tables, and see that if I'm to complete even barely sufficient deco, they need to take a couple last breaths and CESA for it.

 

[danvolker]

Another question for Chatterton.....If you had a teenage son that you were taking diving with you--and your son was OOA, would he be able to count on you to provide air. You know there is only one answer.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Harsh mindset??? Really? Let me be clear, if you have nothing to breathe, or nothing you feel like breathing at the time, and you jump me for my regulator, I will fight you for it, and I will win. Period. It is totally unacceptable, unnecessary, and dangerous, for any diver to jump another diver for gas, and place both lives in serious danger. What could be more dangerous? Seriously?

?

I don't know.. what is more dangerous than sharing air?..... maybe fighting over it?

I thought I would give you a chance to clarify (or tone down) some of the statements which I found to be most surprising.... you definitely did clarify them for me.
Thanks!

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I already posted a response in another thread. But I will say as much as I am for diver safety and proper buddy skills. And rescue skills in the open water class, this is not what the article is about. This is about grown ups doing deep techincal dives where it is understood that recreational rules do not apply. That goes for sharing gas. To me it is no different than a living will. It's too bad that people cannot accept that there are those who choose to make decisions that are unpopular.

Not much different than a long term care plan for a terminal ilness that includes a prescription for a Smith and Wesson solution. These are decisons made by grownups that have been done for centuries. On a ship in the 15th century every man on that boat knew if something happened he would die and no one could do anything about it. The Apollo, Challenger, and Columbia crews knew this. But they did it anyway. Why are they heroes and someone who speaks what has been understood in the tech community for decades an evil person?

John, If you see this know that I hope to someday get to dive with you. Either on a shallow reef or, if I happen to have the skills and training, on the Doria or similar wreck if there's anything left by then. Your honesty is refreshing.

 

[drrich2]

Jim:

I think there's a context for his viewpoint, that you mentioned in that other thread, that's not entirely obvious to some of us (me, anyway) on ScubaBoard, which has a broader, more standard recreational audience than would normally be studying the types of dives he's doing. Extraordinary dives by an extraordinary diver with extraordinary experience...that would kill a lot of other people who tried them.

Given your history of strong advocacy of the buddy system and safe, conservative and disciplined dive planning and teaching, your input was helpful to me. Sounds like there's an advanced sub-culture of the tec. scuba community doing extreme diving with a different set of ethics for those dive types?

I hope the context will not be missed. Kind of like all those reality t.v. show disclaimers 'Don't try this at home.'

Richard.

 

[Quero]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

I have cleaned up this thread by removing the personal attacks and commentary. Heated discussions are fine, but when reacting to another's claims or comments, posters must offer arguments and evidence in support of divergent viewpoints and steer clear of making abusive remarks. Please heed this warning: further breaches of acceptable posting conduct are likely to carry sanctions.

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[BluewaterSail]

I thank John for posting his article, and I don't believe that its so very harmful to the recreational masses. On the contrary, I am regularly shocked by the lack of dive planning that I see. "What's your plan?" I ask. The answer is, "Oh, we're just here to have fun. Go in, swim about, and do whatever the computer tells me to". I have heard this from both people who consider themselves recreational divers, and also from people who carry a deco bottle or two and expect to go into deco. I have also seen DMs share gas with people under their care. Regularly. Like its not an emergency procedure, its a normal part of the program. WTF? Shouldn't these dive professionals leading the groups insist on some gas planning?

My opinion is, that even on the simplest shallow reef dive, people should be taking responsibility for themselves. Maybe the thought that there may not always be someone there to save them would encourage them to put a little thought into planning their dive, and in general taking responsibility for their own life.

On the other hand, I would always donate gas to another diver if it did not endanger me. No matter how much of an irresponsible idiot he was. If I was diving with a buddy, my present frame of mind indicates that I should be carrying his backup gas. I am just beginning my technical training, and don't expect to ever reach the level of John. I'm not sure that I would choose to do a challenging dive without that backup, but they do say never say never.