GUE's stance on CCR

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why is this better than when AG tried to do it out west? (answer: it isn't)

Correct Answer- Because AG clustered up the workings of the units he was using so bad that it was a joke.

My question would be why is GUE going for an ECCR and not an MCCR like the Kiss or Revo? I suspect it has something to do with flood recovery or something.
 
AG's unit wasn't a very good design (and even if it was, it ran so contrary to every other commercially popular CCR that it wasn't an easy transition from other units), but the bigger failure was in the mixed team concept and stripping the benefit of running the CCR in the first place in order to force a fit with OC team mates.
 
Correct Answer- Because AG clustered up the workings of the units he was using so bad that it was a joke.

My question would be why is GUE going for an ECCR and not an MCCR like the Kiss or Revo? I suspect it has something to do with flood recovery or something.
it was surprising to me as well
 
Correct Answer- Because AG clustered up the workings of the units he was using so bad that it was a joke.

My question would be why is GUE going for an ECCR and not an MCCR like the Kiss or Revo? I suspect it has something to do with flood recovery or something.

Warning: I'm a novice CCR diver, commenting on things I haven't seen people mention yet.

ECCRs are better at maintaining a setpoint (my pathfinder will keep me at a 1.2/1.3 PPO2 within a much smaller margin than me manually adding O2 ever could). European certification standards require eCCR as well, I believe.

There can also be issues during ascents, as your PO2 can drop quite dramatically - with SCR and hypoxic mixes you can very easily drop below levels that are safe to breath off of.

Yes, the solenoid can do magical things and dump a bunch of O2 into your loop, but you're going to 1) hear it 2) feel it 3) be monitoring your PO2 anyways. Jumping up quickly won't harm you right away, but if my HUD starts blinking rapidly at me I'm going to flush my loop, and bailout if the sensors looks weird.

Flood recovery/prevention is a function of the counter lungs and breathing loop - having proper partitioning, training to remove water, and avoid it affecting your scrubber when it hits it. The solenoid won't really be affected by water. The unit being mCCR or eCCR won't matter.

AG used external O2, with a mass flow valve, then jammed salt water up into it by training people to disconnect and reconnect it underwater. This causes the microscopic pinhole to get filled with salt, blocking the valve, and causing much sharper drops in PO2, and more manual O2 adds.
 
Warning: I'm a novice CCR diver, commenting on things I haven't seen people mention yet.

Then usually that's a sign to stay quiet.

I'm not going to dissect the rest of your post since this isn't the forum for it however...

AG used external O2, with a mass flow valve,

No, AG got rid of the leaky valve altogether.
 
Greetings,
I am sorry to be late to the party. I have been expecting some speculation regarding GUE’s CCR evaluations and I appreciate reading some of your ideas. Contrary to the insinuation of some, my personal interest in CCR is not financially inspired. I have been interested in CCR as long as rebreathers in general, having started in 1995, diving SCR and CCR units since that time. I can understand how people with no personal rebreather experience (and/or CCR) can struggle to rationalize legitimate motivations for diving CCRs but this lack of experience makes some assertions appear naive. Of course that lack of experience doesn’t necessarily make their concerns irrelevant but it does complicate productive conversations. Creating a platform where our experiences can be shared in a useful way is one of several reasons for GUE’s beta CCR program.

As pertains to the risk of our considered path, we must acknowledge a trade-off with most choices. ALL RB diving (CCR and SCR) immediately increases complexity which is debatably useful depending on the dive in question. The value of RB diving becomes more obvious in long or deep dives but can also vary with a range of other parameters. As a person with significant RB80 experience, I can speak from real-world experience about the benefits of that system. In my opinion many claims against the RB80 are as naive as those made against CCR. In any case, even lots of RB80 experience is insufficient when comparing SCR to CCR as they are different systems with attendant risks and benefits.

An oversimplified view is to profess that CCR is extremely complicated. A CCR is actually a pretty simple device when you take the time to learn about its operation. A more useful basis for evaluation would be to consider the reliability of CCR. This latter aspect regarding a proper evaluation of reliable, safe operation during CCR diving is the primary reason we expanded beyond covert experiments with CCR.

Robust CCR experience was not a priority in the past because we had many other projects to complete. We were busy building a global infrastructure and found semi-closed units very capable while targeting a range of projects. Moreover, long and deep caves with mostly square profiles promise the least compelling value for CCR. Cheap Helium and robust support teams as well as an immature rebreather industry further discouraged CCR as a priority during the late 1990s and early 2000.

The rebreather industry still has some growing pains ahead but the potential value of CCR for an organization with long-term global exploration /conservation projects is obvious to anyone with knowledge and experience in their use. The various reasons this is true will take time to outline capably and they are part of another article I am currently drafting. For the time being I will stick with an overview of GUE’s current evaluations.

From my perspective the most useful opinions are grounded in robust knowledge and experience. So, for the last five years we have been very carefully studying the CCR industry along with various RB units and, of course, the accidents. Nearly four years ago I requested our senior trainers begin openly exploring CCR diving. After hundreds of hours of diving we agreed the experience has been positive. But we have taken a long view and I decided that a larger user base would be needed in order to evaluate during more expansive testing. Richard Lundgren graciously volunteered to spearhead a CCR beta program which we have been developing and testing over the last 18 months.

We used the GUE CCR beta program to test convictions formed from many years of diving. The students were carefully selected, using GUE instructors who were also able to nominate experienced tech 2 divers. I picked novice RB users and experts as well as advocates and detractors. These evaluations are helping build small communities of experienced GUE CCR divers. This developing group is well positioned to help the organization evaluate the value, safety and integration issues associated with CCR diving.

It is true these test classes are using the JJCCR but it would not be accurate to say we have “selected” this unit. We have solid experience diving the unit and it represents a good collection of several key ingredients (more on this later) including JJCCR reps that are friendly and supportive. It is hard to envision GUE classes (and resulting global projects) that do not include reasonable standardization so we are have been testing our classes on one unit. Meanwhile, we continue to evaluate the details and scope of possible CCR standardization.

Some might say we are moving too fast and others will complain we are moving too slowly. Some people prefer we do not move at all. Regardless of your opinion I hope you can see that we are trying to move responsibly. Many hundreds of hours have gone into our evaluations and many hundreds more will follow.

To this day I continue diving my RB80 and maintain it is a powerful tool. I would argue CCR is also a powerful tool. I suspect the risks of both systems can be more or less managed. The “more or less” part of that qualification lies at the heart of our efforts. Either way I would assert that making uninformed decisions in either direction is irresponsible.

I hope to be doing demanding and unique dives over many years to come. Any tool that enables these dives or supports our global mission is something I take seriously. I also take seriously my responsibility to our community and am inclined to move methodically when making such assessments.

Best wishes to everyone,
Jarrod
 
Nothing like getting it from the horse's mouth -- thank you, Jarrod, for contributing here!
 
Logical as always. Thanks for taking the time to share with us.
 
I'm enthusiastic about the direction GUE is moving in with this, but my need to grow in this direction has not presented itself yet, I know it will.
 
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