Government Regulation

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Gov regulation is an interesting issue at best. Are we talking regulation or criminal penalties for wrong doers. Regulation would be for businesses, orgs, certifying agencies.

Criminal penalties won't happen. Those are on law breakers and require possible jail time which politicians look at as a spending issue

Regulation of businesses and other orgs associated with scuba is a possibility, but we don't want it. It will add cost to the divers in the end. Some group of people would decide on what to follow and none of us know what that outcome would be. Warning labels, regs that would most likely be over restrictive, red tape, and more fees and taxes with no positive effect on the sport.

The civil courts have some effect on negligence by individuals and businesses that operate in a reckless manner.

Do we need or want more over site? I don't
 
Government regulation of dive activities is something I would stand behind. If private individuals, organizations, or businesses wouldn't, or couldn't, enforce rules and regulations, then the government should step in. I am well aware that the right thing to do almost never get done until the government steps in. For example, school segregation is wrong, but still, it took a ruling called Brown vs. Board of Education to end it.

I totally understand that there is a financial incentives for dive charters and dive masters to look the other way if the violations are minor (ex: touching wildlife, touching corals). If they look the other way, they would keep the customer happy, because letting the customers do whatever they want is good customer service (sarcasm). I am embarrassed to admit this, but this is based on personal experience. When I was diving with my extended family in Malaysia back in 2006, my uncle loudly admit that he touched coral and wildlife and my divemaster literally covered his eyes with his hand when he sees my uncle doing it...
Government regulation is something you'd stand behind is it? I am constantly amazed at how my fellow Canadians freely invite government intrusion into our (my) life!!! What you should have done was punch your uncle in the yap. Not hide behind a government regulation to do the dirty work for you!!! We live in a nanny state as it is and it's getting worse everyday.
 
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Can you define what you mean by true liberty?

Off the top of my head, the right to make your own decisions & 'do as you please,' so to speak, as long as your actions don't unduly infringe the rights of others.

The U.S. founding Fathers put their support behind this basic notion with the freedom of the pursuit of happiness doctrine. Oddly enough, in U.S. culture, people don't seem to value this one as much as freedom of speech. Then again, a lot of people seem unable to tell freedom of religion apart from freedom from religion, so why should I be surprised?

Richard.
 
I think government regulation is a very bad idea, just look at states that require divers to have a flag. Lots of divers get ticketed for not having one but almost never is a boater ticketed for coming too close to a flag. In 43 years of diving I have never seen a boater ticketed for this. Whatever regulations they come up with will only cause problems, cost you money and in the end will not help anything.
 
Just a few comments as this continues....

1) I posed the question but don't personally advocate government involvement. For all of the shortcomings of the as-is, government involvement won't help anything.

2) I am surprised to not be hearing more from the other side of the pond where there is experience with higher forms of regulation.

Have at it.....
Pete
 
You don't want any government getting involved in scuba diving. They did this in the province of Quebec about 10 years ago.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/10775-quebecs-new-diving-laws.html post #4

Here is the regulation in english. FQAS --> Diving Regulations of Quebec

Typical government bureaucracy gone crazy. I wonder how many overseas visitors dive in Quebec, I know I wouldn't bother with all the drama and will dive elsewhere. That poor effort to regulate would do nothing to help the industry, and do more to prevent overseas people not diving there.
 
Government regulation of dive activities is something I would stand behind. If private individuals, organizations, or businesses wouldn't, or couldn't, enforce rules and regulations, then the government should step in. I am well aware that the right thing to do almost never get done until the government steps in. For example, school segregation is wrong, but still, it took a ruling called Brown vs. Board of Education to end it.

I totally understand that there is a financial incentives for dive charters and dive masters to look the other way if the violations are minor (ex: touching wildlife, touching corals). If they look the other way, they would keep the customer happy, because letting the customers do whatever they want is good customer service (sarcasm). I am embarrassed to admit this, but this is based on personal experience. When I was diving with my extended family in Malaysia back in 2006, my uncle loudly admit that he touched coral and wildlife and my divemaster literally covered his eyes with his hand when he sees my uncle doing it...

Currently, I have this idea. I was reading the "How to piss off a divemaster?" thread and I am shocked by the abuses a divemaster receives. What if from now on, a divemaster will also have the responsibility to report safety violations or fisheries and habitat protection violation (ex: illegally harvesting sea cucumbers for BBQ). Thankfully, all divers on-board a charter would have signed a waiver, which included their contact information, address, and date of birth. A divemaster could simply make a photocopy of the waiver and attach a copy of the incident report and forward it to the appropriate government agency (I am still deciding on what government agency should be responsible for this). A couple days later (depending on the efficiency of the agency), the person suspected of breaking the rules will receive a call from said agency and be given a chance to defend himself. If it is determined that said individual is guilty, his licence will be taken away and he will be stopped from diving for a certain amount of time, or if the violation is very, very serious, banned for life. Due to the concept of judicial independence, the suspect can certainly fight the ruling in court.

This system, if implemented, will let divers know that what they did underwater will have consequences. The dive master may not be able to stop you now, but you will have to deal with the US government once you return home.

This system is not extreme at all and there are already precedence for this. For example, driving. If you sped while driving, you get points taken from you and your licence will be taken from you after a certain amount of point. You drink and drive and was caught, you have your licence taken away and you may go to jail. There is also a precedence for this in diving as well. If you look at PADI's QM department's QM Procedure Flow Chart, my system is inspired by it. The difference is that whereas PADI QM deals with Divemasters and above, my system deals with everyone who dive.

Unfortunately, this system will not work if the task of regulating and enforcing is given to a dive training organization (ex: PADI). The reason is that the relationship between training organization and us is still a service provider/ customer relationship and hence unequal. A diver can simply laugh at the training organization in the face and go to another organization. Now, if it is the government coming after them though, they won't be laughing.

I remember back in university, my American history professor once said, "Self-Regulation is always better than government regulation. Government regulation is almost always a lot harsher than self-regulation." Of course it would be best if training organization can also regulate and enforce rules, but as I mentioned above, the unequal service provider/ customer position makes regulating and enforcing hard.

One persons word against another is insufficient proof of guilt or innocence in common law. So a DM (lets say me), takes a set against an obnoxious diver, who dives ok but is rude and a pig. I state to the scuba law body, he has desecrated the reef. No one else sees it but I "apparently" have and that's good enough for the court, I don't think so. If a dive police officer was scooting around the area in his high speed low drag dive scooter and sees an offence, sure thing, might breathalyse the diver as well and get them for DUI - Diving Under the Influence (Narced), but one commoner against another doesn't mean squat.

The picture below (which I borrowed, absconded with, stole, pinched, lifted from this site) says it all for me in the most satirical way. If we go down this path we will need off road bike police, swimming police, etc etc, where does it all end? Unlike road accidents, if a person is silly enough to not follow well tested guidelines, they usually just kill themselves (although some are hurt in the process of attempted rescue or follow the silly person). In the main it only physically hurts the "silly" person (Darwin's theory of evolution proven once again). Also the ocean is a big place, how do you regulate in something which you can see at best 50m. It becomes an over regulated industry for the sake of it, and not a very effective one to boot. Sure, regulate for standards relating to gas fills, cylinders, training, provision of dive trips (all which are fairly well covered in some form now), and make it an offence to deliberately breach those standards. In this way the general public is well covered.

Lets also put it into perspective, we take care so we do no damage to reefs, yet Hurricane Katrina rolls in and wipes out 50% of a reef and we don't bat an eyelid. We take care with reefs because its morally and ethically the right thing to do, and right for the environment. From a practical point of view, one hurricane probably does more damage in one hit, that all the divers in the world have ever done. I saw a reef in Tonga where a fishing trawler came through like a tornado path. All coral in the path of the net for some 200m long and 25 m wide was wiped out totally. This does not mean we shouldn't bother to be good divers. I agree totally we MUST protect the reefs and by us looking after them as divers sets an example for other industries to follow. BUT lets also keep it in perspective. We fine a diver for touching coral and yet a fishing boat rips out a large patch of coral with its anchor and that's ok and un-policeable anyway.

As we say at work "Lets have a meeting to decide about the meetings and to decide if further meetings will be held about the meetings"




Diving Police.jpg
 
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You don't want government interference any more than you have already. Here in Oz we have more than you do and it's a pain. Nationally the cylinder regulations mean yearly hydros. Have a few tanks and it gets really expensive really quickly. When you know you've only put a couple of dozen fills in the tanks over that time, it hurts even more.

In Queensland after losing a few US citizens on the GBR they implemented a set of OH&R rules that basically copied the PADI manual and made it into a pseudo law. (my understanding is that while it isn't technically a law, by ignoring the standards and not having a legally defensible standard of your own opens you up to fines in the hundreds of thousands, and jail time).

While there are noble ideas such as mandating that all divers carry an SMB/sausage and whistle, it also has stupid things like requiring all EANx diving to have a DM or higher present to supervise the Nitrox divers, regardless of their certification level.

Correct me if I am wrong (and I am sure people will). My understanding of the rules in OZ re scuba cylinder testing is that its an Australian standard but NOT law. All other HP cylinders like industrial gases are only tested every 5-10 years depending on the gas and pressure. LDS make a killing out of enforcing a standard which is not law but very profitable indeed. Aircraft O2 cylinders are 3-5 years depending on the cylinder. I believe HP O2 industrial gas is of similar test frequency. Where else in the world do we hydro test dive cylinders yearly? Where in the world do we have cylinder failures of a frequency that would dictate yearly hydro's everywhere. My philosophy is "Do it for the right reasons, or don't do it at all as you are devaluing the action".

---------- Post added December 29th, 2013 at 01:45 AM ----------

Now we care about overweight people and their health!

On that basis the government of the world has declared that anyone overweight who continues to over eat on a regular basis will be shot!

We care about our citizens and on the basis that our previous draconian laws were ignored by 0.00000001% of the population, we have decided to stiffen the over eating law significantly. We feel it will show a sharp decrease in numbers of offenders in the longer term, and be in their best interests, whether they realise it or not!

Minister for Weight Loss Products and Cemeteries (vested interests declared).
 
Although I'm against regulation I can't see more robust swimming skills and fitness tests being such a bad idea.

It not a bad idea. The bad idea is govt requiring it! We had very difficult swimming requirements back in 1968. We didn't have BCD's w/ auto inflators or octo regs or SPG's.........
 
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