Thumbing the Dive

[AfterDark]

This thread is getting surreal.

This thread shows why solo diving could be the norm in the future.

 

[ItsBruce]

Part of the nonsense of this legal side.....
There is no way some ridiculous legal contract, is going to make a coward or even an "average" man, act Heroically like a Navy SEAL would...the words on paper cease to exist in the heat of battle, and the true nature of the man defines his actions....In a potentially catastrophic Diving scenario, all the same elements are in play....If you have chosen well, your buddy will BE the man or woman you need them to be, when the chips are down....If you have chosen poorly, as in expecting a written contract - to turn a coward into a hero....then you may never make a mistake again.

---------- Post added January 20th, 2014 at 10:53 AM ----------

And another thing.... I have always said that diving is NOT for EVERYONE. There are "Never-evers" ( people that can-not be trained), and many people that just make lousy divers. Maybe divers today account for 5% of the total US population ( probably less). Of this 5%, probably less than one in one hundred, of the 5% ..... have anything close to the ADVENTURE SPIRIT and the HEROIC POTENTIAL required to "BE" the buddy you would want to have in a Catastrophic scenario. This is why your choice of buddy is your most important gear choice, and why so much screening and in-water testing of this choice, is required for you to KNOW that you have the right buddy.....and this is why you need to cultivate good buddy relationships, and make these people important and part of, your daily life.

The divers that THINK they are too busy to develop strong buddy relationships, and who would instead hope to compel a stranger to ACT like a HERO or a Buddy -- by a quick stroke of a pen on a written contract---these divers are seriously deluded, and bad for the sport--as well as being divers that dive with the protection of paper tigers--they think they have backup plans, but in reality they do not.

You make good points. Perhaps a bit utopian, but good points.

Since I like your thought processes, let me ask: If, at the beginning of a dive, you thumbed the dive, would your buddy (the one about whom you write) stick with you until you were back on the boat? (Yes or no)

Everyone is invited to answer.

My next question will be based on your answer(s).

 

[Zeldah]

As a fairly new diver, if I knew that thumbing the dive would mean the whole group had to surface, might I start to overlook perhaps a few simple things that would normally have my thumb sticking straight up? I could definitely see how new or less confident divers would feel pressured to ignore early warning signs, no one wants to be the person who ruined the dive for everyone.......... to the extreme where they ruined the dive for themselves by dying during it! Do the organizations think of these things before they go changing the mandates? Having one person responsible for how and if the whole group dives seems extreme, buddy pairs to me, is the acceptable way to go but of course only works if you have a good buddy. Ten four.

My buddy and I have both thumbed dives and that means it is over, for both of us. Period. No whining clause.

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

You make good points. Perhaps a bit utopian, but good points.

Since I like your thought processes, let me ask: If, at the beginning of a dive, you thumbed the dive, would your buddy (the one about whom you write) stick with you until you were back on the boat? (Yes or no)

Everyone is invited to answer.

My next question will be based on your answer(s).

I'm obviously not Dan, but since you invited, and since I've been quietly following this thread: Yes. I often dive (lead, usually) groups of 3 - 5 divers. If one diver thumbs, we all stay together, and make sure the diver having a problem is ok before continuing our dive.

I may be in the minority in that I rarely dive with people I do not know well, but I see it as my duty to make sure everyone who is diving with me exits the water safely, no mater how far along in the dive we are.

On shore dives I have escorted various buddies all the way back to shore, out of the water, and walked them back to my truck when they thumbed a dive at the beginning (difficulty equalizing), or midway through the dive (cold, not feeling 100%, whatever).

After I know they are safe and ok, then I'll continue the dive.

For a boat dive, I will wait on the surface until I see them climb onto the boat, then resume my dive.

Best wishes.

 

[Frosty]

Back to the basic question though.recreational diving really means direct ascent is to be available at all times.
So for me there are only two options dependant TOTALLY on the specifics of the dive group I was with.
If im diving with my buddy and they theumb the dive then two of us are going up-end of story.
Reason being if its my regular buddy then theres something pretty major gone down.-No ego here but minor stuff is sorted out on the surface or a meter or two into the dive so its something to worry about if either of us thumbs the dive beyond that point..
If its one of my kids or my wife with me then there may be a minor gear issue to resolve or again they might need me so Im going up with them.
If its a group dive and theres no distress evident then the group stay below the diver till they are in the boat.(im lucky to mostly dive in good vis with a captain on the boat)

 

[danvolker]

You make good points. Perhaps a bit utopian, but good points.

Since I like your thought processes, let me ask: If, at the beginning of a dive, you thumbed the dive, would your buddy (the one about whom you write) stick with you until you were back on the boat? (Yes or no)

Everyone is invited to answer.

My next question will be based on your answer(s).

If I was diving with Sandra and Bill, on a typical Palm Beach baby dive like Breakers Reef or Pauls...see the sample video...If I had a reg issue or had some gear issue that required returning to the boat right away, I would signal them that I had to go back to the boat, but for them to keep going--and they would probably expect that a strong likelihood would exist that I would get back in the water and join them again soon--but they would keep going....If it was Sandra with the problem, I would go up with her( more of a couples/social issue related to a potential doghouse ..If Bill, we would let him communicate whether he wanted us with him or not...but again, this is a baby reef of 60 feet deep or less, that I free-dive as easily as if in a pool, and on which any one of the three of us does not actually NEED a buddy on.....

If it was a 130 foot dive like the Hole in the Wall, with challenges in this area much higher, we would all go up together if one thumbed...and if it was a tech dive, obviously we would all go up together.

There are dive sites so easy, that the 3 of us don't see buddy redundancy as required---such as in a pool...as at the BHB Marine Park..or on Breakers or Pauls....

[video=youtube;tEeKwgihaw8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEeKwgihaw8&list=UUsM5Za9Kc3DbP7Qo3-Zmz9w&feature=share&index=4[/video]
The southern Palm Beach reefs we refer to as baby dives...

---------- Post added January 21st, 2014 at 09:13 AM ----------

When George Irvine and Bill Mee first met me, I was a spear fisherman in the early 90's....as such, I had been spearfishing solo for most of the 80's and up to meeting them.....I say solo, meaning as spear fisherman, you would dive WITH friends, jump in with them, but sooner or later, you would see a fish--and be off on the hunt...and then solo for either 5 to 10 minutes, or maybe the rest of the dive if you did not run into anyone again. George and Bill adopted me into their DIR styled WKPP ocean teams, because it was easy for me to follow a mission parameter of not leaving a buddy when this is important( ANY Challenging dive), and because of good peripheral awareness, etc. Each of them had similar hunting skills, and each was just fine hunting an 80 foot reef solo..... They tended to enjoy more of a social dive with 2 or 3 buddies together the whole time....and would want to use DIR rules--but would not be ridiculous about it on a baby dive....Our DIR ideas were used "without fail" on the adventure dives --the ones with what we consider big challenges, all over 80 feet deep, some as deep as 300 feet.
But..each of us is and was, easily competent to dive solo on normal recreational . Solo was just not the best way for us to reach the bigger adventures of the more challenging dives....

So in a population of divers....I think they need to see if there is an area they are fully competent solo. Once upon a time, this "safe solo" was true of most if in a swimming pool--but after a decade of modularized training, there are in fact, many divers that are not safe if solo in a pool. .... And there will be plenty of divers that are safe on a baby dive--like BHB Marine Park, or Breakers or Pauls, or some of the pretty shallow stuff Spencer Slate drops people on in Key Largo.....Beautiful dives every one would enjoy--but that a diver not MISSING any critical skills, should be just fine on if solo. Now, I am not suggesting all these competent divers SHOULD dive solo. I AM SAYING THEY SHOULD DIVE SOCIALLY WITH THEIR BUDDIES...Pretty much no issue could arise on such a dive that any of these divers could not easily handle. This is nothing like the issues that can arise on a tech dive--or even an advanced recreational dive like the Hole In the Wall.
And in fact, if some wierd issue does occur on one of the baby dives, with the buddies, they will be there to see it occur, and to help. But assuming that each of us is so incompetent, that we can't make it back to the boat by ourselves--even if we express we are fine, and this is what we want--this is an absurd mis-direction of the DIR intent.

***Note**
It does not take a buddy team, to have a DM go down and free an anchor, or to hook off on a wreck.
It does not take a buddy team ( two instructors) to lead 2 or 4 students--these as buddy pairs, not expected to help the instructor if the instructor was in need of assistance.

 

[tomfcrist]

It does not take a buddy team ( two instructors) to lead 2 or 4 students--these as buddy pairs, not expected to help the instructor if the instructor was in need of assistance.

I actually agree with most of your post Dan...Amazing right?

The last blurb is concerning to me though......I wouldnt have students in OW if I didnt believe that they could render assistance to me in an emergency. Train them right and they will be plenty capable of doing so. What is the difference between a student on thier first or second dive in OW and a certified diver one dive after thier class? There shouldnt be any reason that a student cant be competently trained to render assistance to thier buddy, even if it is thier instructor.

 

[danvolker]

I actually agree with most of your post Dan...Amazing right?

The last blurb is concerning to me though......I wouldnt have students in OW if I didnt believe that they could render assistance to me in an emergency. Train them right and they will be plenty capable of doing so. What is the difference between a student on thier first or second dive in OW and a certified diver one dive after thier class? There shouldnt be any reason that a student cant be competently trained to render assistance to thier buddy, even if it is thier instructor.

Hi Tom,
I think this was just the way I am explaining this....I was trying to say that if there were 4 new OW students, that this was 2 buddy teams.....and that the instructor had no buddy.

I would go as far as to suggest that there are many new OW student buddy teams we see in Florida, that would be quite ineffective at helping their own buddy, lot less "NOTICING" that their instructor was having a problem, and then pro-actively attempt to DO SOMETHING to help. And of course, there would be buddy teams of new students that would see this, and immediately do the right thing, perfectly. There will be a wide range of abilities that exist in such a population--not all will notice much that is going on( by my definition, no awareness equals poor buddy/no buddy).