FL Cavern instructor

[B Lo]

You might clarify what it is that you're hinting at because I can promise you it's not as clear as you might think.

I'm not talking about money when I say lowest bidder.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

I'd imagine he's referring to new students that look for the most expedient way towards certification as opposed to the best possible instruction.

For instance my journey to Cave took about two years, nine systems and right about eighty dives. Where as most folks don't have the patience for such mentoring and do a zero to hero course in a week or two.

I can assure you the difference in quality between these two methods is staggering.

You need to understand that this isn't like your other courses so assuming it will be is futile. Overhead environments are unforgiving and your training should be as well.

 

[ams511]

To those folks who suggest Jim Wyatt, I have a concern based upon his website. "An improper attitude may constitute grounds for denying certification, regardless of proficency." I've never seen an instructor post anything like that and it strikes me the wrong way. If I am a proficient, safe, diver and the instructor arbitrarily decides he doesn't like my personality, I'd rather my money not go into the toilet. He may be a great instructor, but based upon that, he's not for me.

Attitude and personality are not synonymous. I suggest you look up the definitions of each term. I am sure an instructor could care less if you are an introvert or an extrovert what he is concerned with is do you understand the risks of the activity and take the instruction and criticisms seriously.

 

[B Lo]

How did you do your cavern certification? Did you do it as a formal, multiple day, class? Did you do the club diving thing and learn with a club instructor? I would love to take the certification class on the slower side but I don't know how that is practically possible to do if you aren't married to and living with a dive instructor who will go out diving with you for weeks on end.

I'd imagine he's referring to new students that look for the most expedient way towards certification as opposed to the best possible instruction.

For instance my journey to Cave took about two years, nine systems and right about eighty dives. Where as most folks don't have the patience for such mentoring and do a zero to hero course in a week or two.

I can assure you the difference in quality between these two methods is staggering.

You need to understand that this isn't like your other courses so assuming it will be is futile. Overhead environments are unforgiving and your training should be as well.

While there are differences between attitude and personality, the way attitude and personality are evaluated is generally one in the same. Attitude and personality share common roots and both are typically only able to be evaluated by observation. It's very easy to call one's personality reflective of his or her attitude. The reverse is also true. For all intents and purposes, the two terms have been used interchangeably here by all involved. In five pages of this thread, nobody else drew a distinction between the two. But I admit the two terms are technically distinct from one another.

As I have stated again and again, if there is an articulable reason to fail someone, I have no issue with that. You've articulated a reason that isn't as arbitrary as saying someone has a "bad" attitude (or personality). If someone doesn't understand the risks or take the instruction seriously, there is an articulable danger. I've never suggested that something along those lines ought to be ignored.

Attitude and personality are not synonymous. I suggest you look up the definitions of each term. I am sure an instructor could care less if you are an introvert or an extrovert what he is concerned with is do you understand the risks of the activity and take the instruction and criticisms seriously.

 

[PfcAJ]

I'd imagine he's referring to new students that look for the most expedient way towards certification as opposed to the best possible instruction.

For instance my journey to Cave took about two years, nine systems and right about eighty dives. Where as most folks don't have the patience for such mentoring and do a zero to hero course in a week or two.

I can assure you the difference in quality between these two methods is staggering.

You need to understand that this isn't like your other courses so assuming it will be is futile. Overhead environments are unforgiving and your training should be as well.

Bingo.

Training with someone who's too nice to fail you is bad, just as training with someone who won't fail you if they think you have an unsafe attitude. Even worse are the instructors who's idea of 'good' is so skewed that all they produce is crummy students. To the same note, there are instructors who can't even perceive a dangerous attitude.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

How did you do your cavern certification? Did you do it as a formal, multiple day, class? Did you do the club diving thing and learn with a club instructor? I would love to take the certification class on the slower side but I don't know how that is practically possible to do if you aren't married to and living with a dive instructor who will go out diving with you for weeks on end.

I started by finding a shop that catered to cave and technical divers first. I "auditioned" a few times on other class trips and he put me on the books. There were two others in my class and we dived three or four weekends together running through all the skills as a team until each person was comfortable and competent. We essentially passed as a team. One team mate dropped the curriculum and I and the other person moved through the entire course together. Our instructor made it very clear that he only dives with his friends and he would only certify us if we truly were safe. He's been at this for 35 years and has an extremely low Instructor number and I feel very blessed to have been mentored by such an accomplished diver.

My advice is avoid the zero to hero and be prepared to realize that you don't know what you don't know. Cave training can be quite humbling you need to be ready to accept that. I say this as I went into training at the normoxic trimix level and an active Divemaster, I thought I had my **** together too.

 

[Dsix36]

I may as well throw my thoughts out there too. I have been following this thread and actually laughing at half the "discussion" due to the complete lack of comprehension that is underlying many of the posts.

There are many competent instructors available and it is pretty much a guarantee that there may be personality conflicts with some of them. There is also a good chance that the student will be overwhelmed by the training. There is absolutely NO FRICKIN GUARANTEE that you will pass the class. You can not "buy" the card.

This sport can be, and often is, dangerous and even deadly. This is not something to be looked at lightly or with an ego that will not let you learn. If you have a "holier than thou" attitude, then your chances are not very good for longevity in this sport. Most cave divers are very honest, friendly, helpful, and safe. You would be amazed at some of the things that total strangers will do for each other in our sport, time and time again.

Unsafe dive practices will give a person a "reputation" in our close knit community that will make if difficult to find a dive buddy and even enter many systems. This is definitely not because we think that we are better than anyone else or that we don't like you. it is simply because every time that something goes wrong in a cave, it puts other good people at risk. It does not matter if it is a rescue attempt or a body recovery, neither is something that any of us want to happen. Yes, we are also worried about loosing access to dive sites, but we also have a very high value on human life - even yours!

This post is not directed at any particular individual and was not a collaboration of all the cave divers. It is just my own quick summary for your reading pleasure.

 

[B Lo]

[sarcasm] That sneaky "dangerous attitude" is very insidious! You almost have to sniff it out. Thankfully there are folks like you and certain, privileged, others who are apparently able to divine, likely through esoteric means, "dangerous attitude." Are you also able to spot witches so that we'll know who to subject to trial by ordeal? Let me know who and I'll be sure to have a cauldron of boiling water ready. [/sarcasm]

Thank you for your most recent post. That's exactly what concerns me! I couldn't have said it any better.

Bingo.

Training with someone who's too nice to fail you is bad, just as training with someone who won't fail you if they think you have an unsafe attitude. Even worse are the instructors who's idea of 'good' is so skewed that all they produce is crummy students. To the same note, there are instructors who can't even perceive a dangerous attitude.

It sounds like you ended up with a stellar arrangement. If I am lucky, perhaps I will find something remotely similar.

I started by finding a shop that catered to cave and technical divers first. I "auditioned" a few times on other class trips and he put me on the books. There were two others in my class and we dived three or four weekends together running through all the skills as a team until each person was comfortable and competent. We essentially passed as a team. One team mate dropped the curriculum and I and the other person moved through the entire course together. Our instructor made it very clear that he only dives with his friends and he would only certify us if we truly were safe. He's been at this for 35 years and has an extremely low Instructor number and I feel very blessed to have been mentored by such an accomplished diver.

My advice is avoid the zero to hero and be prepared to realize that you don't know what you don't know. Cave training can be quite humbling you need to be ready to accept that. I say this as I went into training at the normoxic trimix level and an active Divemaster, I thought I had my **** together too.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

That sneaky "dangerous attitude" is very insidious! You almost have to sniff it out. Thankfully there are folks like you and certain, privileged, others who are apparently able to divine, likely through esoteric means, "dangerous attitude." Are you also able to spot witches so that we'll know who to subject to trial by ordeal? Let me know who and I'll be sure to have a pot of boiling water ready.

Thank you for your most recent post. That's exactly what concerns me! I couldn't have said it any better.

You would be absolutely amazed at how many people pass through Scuba Board either with an attitude of "I don't need cave training" or "I don't need to listen to what people say about training."

I'm not saying you are either of these but this is exactly how epic threads become epic. We've seen this time and time again from similar posters.

To be quite honest you are starting to fit the profile and you are getting the sort of responses I expect. Again, not a knock. Just being honest.

 

[ams511]

There is absolutely NO FRICKIN GUARANTEE that you will pass the class. You can not "buy" the card.

This goes back to attitude. Some students have the attitude of entitlement and think that they paid for card and do not need to do the work for the course. I am sure that every instructor has one or more student "horror stories". I am not a scuba instructor, but I am sure bad skills can be corrected with proper instruction, practice, and dedication. A bad attitude cannot.

If a person is unsure of his skills or the instructor, then why not take a private lesson or an "into-to-tech" course to evaluate the instructor and have him evaluate you. If the chemistry is bad then nothing is lost.