Maybe its just me

[LeadTurn_SD]

Agree with last 2 posts. And that AOW card is at least some little tangible thing an op can see when not knowing a diver. The 130' rec. limit and "conditions similar to training", etc. has always puzzled me. The 60' limit is of course an agency recommendation, but there is no advice on how to increase depth. How gradually? With a pro at first or gradually with a fellow newbie? How many dives should an OW diver have before going to 100 or 130'? After 1,000 dives is it OK to do this without AOW or Deep Cert? Old questions, sorry.

Well, I have a similar story to Bob DBF. I was certified in 1976. I took AOW in 2007. In the years that preceded AOW, I did staged decompression diving. There were no "Tech" certifications back then. I had experienced divers as mentors.

So I'd be dishonest if I said you need 100 dives before going deep. But I would be total honest by saying I progressed (rapidly) in a stepwise fashion, with my dives getting gradually more complex.

Best wishes

 

[LaMissJude]

In my opinion, if a diver (me included) goes to dive with a dive centre, there is a pretty simple rule: "their house, their rules."
If the diver doesn't like the rules, then he/she can chose to dive with another operator.

Most of the dive centres and dive professionals I know want, as well as providing a good and safe service, to be covererd in case of problem and it's logical.
You want to dive nitrox and be able to go to 30m? then show your certifications and let the place assess if they can thrust you.
You want to go deeper? see above.

I am not saying that beacause someone has the card(s), he/she is necessarily qualified (unfortunately). It's why I'm saying above: "show the certs and let the operation assess that you can do what you say you can do."
Talking about everything and anything one did underwater is just talking...
Most of the place I know, with the right certifications and attitude on land and underwater would be pretty flexible with a good diver, as long as the basic rules are being respected (depth, buddy pairs, bottom time, air pressure at the end of the dive, respect of the reef and creatures... it's prety much always the same.)

If a diver wants to play by his/her own rules, then this diver can do it from his/her own boat, with his/her own equipment, tanks and compressor.
No reason to put the liability on someone else.

 

[swimrundive]

47! Or was that 63? Hang on, 87! Yes, that's it!

I agree with your observation of the vast amount of FUD regarding OW vs AOW vs experience vs anything else.

We look for the following in dive ops we use:
- a professional attitude and willingness to treat us like competent divers (dive your own profile)
- ability to identify if we are actually capable of being competent divers (in the local conditions)

I am happy for the dive op to chat with and observe us and make their own educated opinion of our abilities to safely dive in the conditions under which they operate. If this means that the first dive or 2 are "easy", then that is fine. Or if they even decide to decline us outright based upon our discussion. I am unhappy if they blindly require / reject us based upon some paperwork certificate.

We are OW certified, but have many years of caribbean dive experience. I am confident that any of the dive ops we frequent would "hand" us AOW cards for the price of the course as they have already witnessed us doing all of the required dives.

But possession of this AOW card would NOT magically transform us into competent Florida Keys drift divers, let alone capable of competently diving the north east coast. We would require further locale specific training and guidance.

So:
- Blind rejection based upon lack of a specific card - an annoyance
- Blind acceptance based upon possession of a specific card - recipe for disaster

Nice! someone sensible... and leadturn chiming in is pretty awesome too. For what it's worth at least down here even with nitrox (soon to be advanced eanx and deco procedures) I'm getting treated with kid gloves since apparently I must be a window licker at the OW status and panic as soon as the depth gauge hits 80.

Looks like from the looks of things I'll have to seek private options since the scuba police are everywhere. If I have to get a card I'll make sure its a deep diver one.

MS S I'll hit you both up this week!

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

Nice! someone sensible... and leadturn chiming in is pretty awesome too. For what it's worth at least down here even with nitrox (soon to be advanced eanx and deco procedures) I'm getting treated with kid gloves since apparently I must be a window licker at the OW status and panic as soon as the depth gauge hits 80.

Looks like from the looks of things I'll have to seek private options since the scuba police are everywhere. If I have to get a card I'll make sure its a deep diver one.

MS S I'll hit you both up this week!

I understand the frustration; I do think it is fairly common for dive ops to require AOW or better to dive past 60'; that is what many ops here in Hawaii require I believe.

For what it is worth, I do think 60' max is a fairly good rule of thumb for newly minted divers, especially when using the ubiquitous Al 80 found at most dive ops.

Below 60' the air in that tank will go quickly, especially for new divers with high air consumption rates. Allowing an inexperienced diver to drop down to 100' can result in a rude awakening with a combination of light narcosis and the failure to grasp how quickly they will breath down their tank at 4 ATM. The dive ops what to prevent bent or embolized (or drowned) divers.

But yes, I feel your pain. Bite the bullet and get the card, or like you mentioned, go "private". Have fun, but be careful and move gradually into deeper and harder dives.

Best wishes.

 

[Mustard Dave]

You gotta know what liability is like in the USA. Of course they have to do this.

You don't need to be afraid of US style litigation to be concerned about divers exceeding their limits and training on your watch.

Heck, if I were responsible for a club outing and one of the freshly minted members wanted to go to 25-30m (80-100ft), I'd have a serious chat with him, strongly discourage it and suggest an alternative dive plan. I'm in no danger of being sued, but someone getting bent or dying on a club outing kinda ruins the mood. Not to mention the bad press we'd get.

The liability issue depends on whether a dive centre would be negligent in the event of an accident. In order to be liable, three things must be demonstrated:

1. The dive centre owed you a duty of care
2. The dive centre failed in that duty of care
3. somebody suffered a loss or an injury

This is the basis of tort law in most jurisdictions in the western world. A lot of cases never make it as far as the courts though, and often businesses or their insurers will pay out early doors as it is cheaper than defending the claim. The USA does have a reputation for everybody bringing frivolous lawsuits, but the rest of the world isn't far behind.

Over here, I have only been asked for a cert card once. It was at Porthkerris divers which is a camp site by the beach where they allow you to shore dive or get on one of their two boats. They are a PADI dive centre, so they are probably following their standards rather than complying with any legal requirement. Elswhere, there are boats operating from Scapa Flow, Anglessey, Oban, Lochaline, Seahouses, Portsmouth, Ilfracombe etcetera, and not one will ask for proof of qualification. Many will ask you to sign a form saying you agree you have participated in a safety briefing and that you are suitably qualified and fit to dive, but they don't give a toss what that qualification is.

The reason for this is, specifying a qualification can often cause more harm than good. We have all seen divers with all the cards in the world who we feel shouldn't even have a PADI Seal Team card. Owners of dive boats do not want to be in the position where they are in court explaining why they deemed a particular customer as suitably qualified for a particular dive. They are in the business of getting you to the site safely and recovering you from the water - once you're off his boat, he has no control of what you do in the water so the diver makes the call as to whether they can undertake the dive.

A dive centre in Malta who we use regularly always check cards and officially will not take you beyond the limit of your qualification. The difference there is they are providing guided diving, so they have a duty of care to their staff. For that reason, they need to do some sort of check before letting them get in the water because they don't want to put their staff in a position where they have to deal with a problem diver. There is still some risk this may happen, but when you are explaining to a court how you try to ensure safe diving practices, it will be extremely difficult explaining to a judge and jury (who are probably not divers) that what you were doing was safe when the incident occurred at 30m and the diver had a bit of plastic saying they were only qualified to 18m.

 

[tursiops]

For what it's worth at least down here even with nitrox (soon to be advanced eanx and deco procedures)

Well, that's interesting, since a prereq for Deco Procedures is AOW or equivalent, and 25 logged open water dives.

 

[tomfcrist]

Well, that's interesting, since a prereq for Deco Procedures is AOW or equivalent, and 25 logged open water dives.

Unless its NAUI, In which case Master Diver would be a Pre-Req.

Either way, let us know who file 13's the standards to accommodate you swimrundive

 

[NAM001]

I have always been one to say the limit for OW's is 60'. I know the arguments, I know the realities, and i know how many newby's i have had to put thier tank back on at 40'. The arguements are OW is good for 130 ft. Your certifications says to conditions that do not exced your training. so that would literally mean that if you OW certed at 50' with 10 ft vis that you are not certed for vis <10 ft vis or depths greater than 50'ft. The training programs have a line at 60'. (You dont train below that for OW). It is only logical that if a boat operator see's that you have an OW only, it means that you have not had training been below 60'depth. Its a no brainer. You should get your OW and dive a while and then continue to AOW where you do advanced (>60' to 100') dives as part of the training.

I can put it another way would you put your life in the hands of a DM who only had the min 50-60 dives (OW through DM) to his credit. Whats the odds that when you get on that boat that it may be the DM's first dive in other than a fresh water lake. MOst likely there is a lot smaller chance of a DM going bad compared to the OW with 8 dives in his course provided log book. Step back for a few minutes and put your self in the shoes of the insurance provider of the boat operator. what would he call risky diving. Call a life insurance man and ask where they draw the line for risky diving. Most will say no additional risk less than 60' and if you have been below 60' in the past year you get a higher rate.

Dont take the rejection personal. get the dives in and get your AOW and later your master card. As bad as it sounds when you get a hundred or so dives you will see just what OW classes are putting out and the headache of under experienced vacation divers.

Get the card and have a dive logbook with a variety of diving environments and eovlutions in it.

 

[Charles2]

In 1966, when I was first certified, my instructor told me that within a few years, I was not going to be able to get a tank filled, especially in Florida, without the card. So......I got the card. (Let's be clear that I am only a recreational diver and have never done any serious depths or caves.) Although I have never been turned down by any dive operator for any dive, I did find that operators were a lot more skeptical of my skills until some sort of 'checkout' dive. I decided that an AOW certification would put more operators at ease with my skills and probably make my arrival at a shop where I was not known a little easier. So......I got the card. This past summer, I dove with an operation in Mexico that provided free Nitrox. So......I got the card. Frankly, I learned some very valuable stuff with each of these courses. If I can find a good NAUI shop, I think that I will take the Master certification this coming summer.

 

[Rayallyn]

One there is a greater risk diving below 60'. You normally see dive ops staying around 30' with OW certs because many divers will still surface too fast if a problem occurs,and some ride their BCs like an elevator. At 30' there is less of a chance of DCS and also less of a chance of lung expansion injury but at 100' you will have a problem with either or both. I have occasionally on deep dives run into problems with vertigo and needed to keep my senses and work (reason) my way through it. An inexperienced diver who experiences this for the first time might be inclined to inflate BC which will probably end badly. Also nitrogen narcosis; the effects are individual and different from diver to diver. One needs to know what the effects of deep diving is on themselves. I sometimes dove to 100' with 30% nitrox but stopped when on one dive I had chase a diver who broke away from his buddies and it was 140' beforeI caught him. Now unless the bottom is 100' or less I dive compressed air.