Would you let my wife dive?

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I thought this was the Dive Medicine forum. What does this anti-government diatribe have to do with the OP's question?

The basic sequence was that some people with a medical condition they don't see as a contraindication to diving but that service providers (e.g.: instructors, charter boats) do, have the option, which many deem immoral, to lie on the paperwork & conceal the condition, thus gaining access to the services albeit at a theoretically increased risk of complications which could also affect other people. I am under the impression this is not rare. Since the OP wanted to know whether a service provider would allow his wife to dive (thankfully she had a Physician signed release, it seems, although evidently even that wouldn't be enough for everyone), and so factors that might impact whether she'd get to dive have some relevance to the question. If she were denied services, it would become even more relevant.

Naturally, where the option of willfully falsifying documentation to bypass service provider objections comes up, there's going to be some extensive debate/exploration of the issue, and that can entail referencing analogous situations to make a point. And that's where we get seat belts, the U.S. government, cave dives (BoulderJohn's input on that was quite interesting), and so on.

Richard.
 
This seems to always be a controversial topic in the diving community, however if you were a shop owner or DM would you let my wife dive in this situation?

She has had only one seizure 16 years ago, but is still on medication. Her doctor has signed off for her to be able to dive. We are going on a trip soon and she expressed interest in doing a discovery dive to see if it's something she would be interested in. If you were the shop owner, would you allow her to dive at shallow depths?

Sorry, but no...I don't need the $50-$75 that bad. The risk out weights the reward big time for me!
 
Rich... how can you say she "avoids putting the liability burden" on me? Her withholding of information in no way releases me from any liability. There is no absolute "right" to be a scuba diver. If you want to be a diver, you agree to disclose certain things that are material. You accept this as a condition of participating in training or other dive services. Therefor you have ZERO expectation of keeping that information to yourself. If you want to avoid disclosing that information... don't dive. It's pretty simple. Because the prospective diver freely accepts the requirement to disclose, there is no "where you stand depends on where you sit" cover of moral relativism available here.

Quite right, RJP.

Organized scuba has done a near miraculous job of self-regulating, thereby almost entirely staving off the imposition of laws, regulations and standards by federal, state and local governments.

This accomplishment is in no small part due to divers following industry rules in an honest and ethical manner, such as being forthright in completing medical questionnaires. If and when enough divers lie accidents will occur and they eventually will catch the eye of federal, state and local government. When that happens, legal measures will be passed, such as the mandatory medical examinations in Queensland, Malta and other venues. It's simply appropriate and prudent to report diseases and disorders because these are the uniform rules of organized scuba, a pursuit in which you have voluntarily chosen to participate and whose overall welfare is in your's and other's best interests.

The scuba diver voluntarily waives his or her "right" to keep personal medical information personal when they contract for training with a dive agency or for diving with an op. It is the agency's and op's perfect right to ask the diver to be honest with them regarding medical conditions that could mean additional risks to the business, other customers and diver himself. There is nothing illegal, inappropriate or unethical about this. The provisions of the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) are binding on health insurers, doctors, hospitals, pharmacies and other health care facilities and providers, not on dive ops and training agencies. Asking the diver to complete a medical questionnaire is consistent with the guidelines of The Recreational Scuba Training Council (RSTC), a worldwide organization which establishes minimum training standards for recreational scuba in order to promote public safety. PADI, SSI, IDEA, SDI, PSS & PDIC, amongst others, are members.

From a legal standpoint, the businesses would be insane not to. A diver's verbal assertions that "I'm capable of monitoring my own medical condition, "I won't sue," "I don't pose a risk to other divers," and the like are both practically and legally meaningless. Even if they weren't meaningless, they wouldn't be binding on the injured or deceased diver's relatives, estate or other entity with legal standing in a negligence or wrongful death suit.

The diver participates in recreational scuba on a voluntary basis. No one forces him to and it's not an activity that is essential to one's livelihood or fundamental well-being. It is a recreation, a past time, a fun thing to do. The individual who does not like the rules or legal maneuvers that the sport uses to protect the diver, other customers and the businesses that offer scuba services doesn't have to participate. He or she can find diversions whose rules better suit them, recreations which don't require them to divulge their medical history. Heaven knows there are dozens and dozens of them.

If you want to dive, then accurately filling out the various forms, questionnaires and waivers required by scuba companies is part of what you must agree to, like it or not.

Regards,

DocVikingo
 
Unfortunately, lying on medical questionnaires is not unique to the diving community. Its actually quite common, either overtly or by omission. Preemployeement, insurance, sports physicals. Prehaps the most blatant example is the federally mandated DOT exams for truck drivers.
 
IMHO people do not have the right to claim their "right to freedom in the pursuit of happiness" justifies putting others at risk. Dive professionals and other divers have a right to make informed choices about the risks of diving. The divers in the water with you also determine your safety. I have thumbed dives because of dive conditions, weather conditions and because I felt uncomfortable with the ability of other divers to safely complete the dive.

It is not a mere inconvenience to have someone die while diving with you. We are not talking about a shortened vacation or someone ruining your day! I have seen people so traumatized that they couldn't sleep, couldn't eat and enjoy activities they normally participate in. Not everyone can shrug off a death so easily.

I am glad the OP and wife make the responsible decision. I hope they follow up on some of the excellent suggestions in this thread and other who read this thread appreciate the wisdom in some of the posts.
 
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I wear them diligently for reasons of my own. I do resent the intrusion into our liberty of the law in the matter.

[...]

our individual liberties are curtailed to some extent when our actions have a reasonable probability of having a substantial deleterious impact on others without their consent.

Can't you see the contradiction in those two paragraphs?

My liberty from excessive medical and social security taxes, or in a country without single payer healthcare and decent social security for the disabled, my liberty from inflated insurance rates, is affected by your liberty to drive at 100mph without a seatbelt. It's irrefutable that widespread use of seatbelts reduces the number of severely injured and disabled drivers. Thus, your liberty behind the wheel conflicts with the liberty for others from paying for your hospital bills and your upkeep as a disabled person.



--
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Typos are a feature, not a bug
 
So is it bad that my car doesn't even have seatbelts?
 
IMHO people do not have the right to claim their "right to freedom in the pursuit of happiness" justifies putting others at risk.

If you drive, you do it every time you get behind the wheel. You pose some level of danger to others. We deem that risk level to be acceptable & permissible.

Figuring out where the trade-off lies between my liberty/rights & yours can be hard to do. Not everyone is inclined to let someone else make that decision for them. Some are.

It is not a mere inconvenience to have someone die while diving with you. We are not talking about a shortened vacation or someone ruining your day! I have seen people so traumatized that they couldn't sleep, couldn't eat and enjoy activities they normally participate in. Not everyone can shrug off a death so easily.

I imagine the people who choose to dive anyway are like the people who dive in grisly car wrecks; they didn't think it was going to happen. Most such divers are probably don't suffer serious mishap the overwhelming majority of the time.

Storker:

Your post gets into where that line lies. We have the option to deny healthcare coverage for injuries judged to be due to self-neglect such as not wearing seat belts. In other words, at times, if they can't afford to pay, you let them die. Or suck it up & provide the charity care, but don't claim they forced you to by their recklessness. We as a society have a choice. This issue is why some of us are alarmed at the progressively socialist nature of U.S. government; that which you are responsible for you generally expect to have substantial control over, and the perspective that we're all part of a collective lends itself to destroying the very rationale for individual liberty.

Richard.
 
There are many types and causes of seizures, accident induced, epilepsy etc. Also as others have said, DAN is the expert. Contact them and get a referral to a Neurologist Dive Medicine Doctor

Consult a Certified Dive Medicine Neurologist (note a Neurologist Doctor who SCUBA Dives does not equal a Dive Medicine Specialty neurologist doctor.) would have to clear her. She would also have to be off medication and seizure free for 5 years (DAN recommendation) and approved by a Dive Medicine Neurologist Doctor before I would consider it.

Full face mask does not eliminate the risk. While it may help by reducing the risk of a regulator being spit out during a seizure, it will not help if they are holding their breath, or vomit. A person who has a seizure at depth is at an high risk of being a injured/killed.

Is it really worth it to SCUBA dive in this circumstance?
 
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We have the option to deny healthcare coverage for injuries judged to be due to self-neglect such as not wearing seat belts. In other words, at times, if they can't afford to pay, you let them die.
Richard.

Richard,

Can you elaborate on the circumstances under which this decision would be made?

Best regards,
DDM
 
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