Rec Vs. Technical???

[CamG]

Greetings Chris,
After reading your OP you sound much like I felt several years back.
I started with gathering a dry suit, a set of doubles, O2 bottle, regs that I needed, etc.
This didn't happen overnight and I took my time the whole time diving to Rec. standards.
Actually doing some really big multi-level dives to be sure I was comfortable being in the water for over an hr at a time.

After diving my doubles for a season with my dry suit I signed up for my first Tech step, Advanced Nitrox / Decompression Procedures TDI.
This was the finest training class I ever took, it opened the door I was looking for as far as training / dive planning.
It fulfilled my dive goals and I have enjoyed some spectacular deep dives in the Great Lakes.
It has given me a firm understanding of Decompression models and helped me find my dive limits as far as depth and time.

I have moved on into some other Tech. classes but the turning point for me was Adv. Nitrox / Deco.
I chose a instructor very carefully as it added a ton of information to my class and a lifelong friend!
This was my experience and we all find our own paths.
Good luck, dive safe, enjoy!
Remember it is supposed to be fun, Ive had to remind myself of that from time to time!

CamG

 

[HIGHwing]

After reading this thread, I came to a pretty quick conclusion. The OP desires to make dives that are just about perfect for a rebreather. Though the initial investment required might be a bit higher, the OP might benefit from purchasing a quality used CCR. If the OP took CCR Mod 1 he would be able to use Tx21/35 (accomplishes the helium benefit and super easy to make) and sling a bottle of air (cheap bailout) and a bottle of O2 and be done. Using this approach he gets the bottom times and finishes up training in a week or so and doesn't have to worry about the horrifying cost of regularly cave filling Faber 112s with Tx30/30 which is going to be $100 to $200 (including the deco gases) for each dive.

I think if it were me, I would just go CCR and call it handled.

Author's Note: I have 3x sets of doubles and two rebreathers. The helium dives are on a rebreather, I'm just saying...

 

[Superlyte27]

After reading this thread, I came to a pretty quick conclusion. The OP desires to make dives that are just about perfect for a rebreather. Though the initial investment required might be a bit higher, the OP might benefit from purchasing a quality used CCR. If the OP took CCR Mod 1 he would be able to use Tx21/35 (accomplishes the helium benefit and super easy to make) and sling a bottle of air (cheap bailout) and a bottle of O2 and be done. Using this approach he gets the bottom times and finishes up training in a week or so and doesn't have to worry about the horrifying cost of regularly cave filling Faber 112s with Tx30/30 which is going to be $100 to $200 (including the deco gases) for each dive.

I think if it were me, I would just go CCR and call it handled.

Author's Note: I have 3x sets of doubles and two rebreathers. The helium dives are on a rebreather, I'm just saying...

In order to take a rebreather class you have to have Advanced Nitrox and Deco. That alone would answer most of the OP's questions. Also, a MOD1 class does not allow the CCR Diver to use Trimix.

However, if you want a rebreather, I have a few I'll sell cheap.

 

[HIGHwing]

In order to take a rebreather class you have to have Advanced Nitrox and Deco. That alone would answer most of the OP's questions. Also, a MOD1 class does not allow the CCR Diver to use Trimix.

That's not universal, you can go this route: CCR Diver - IANTD - World Headquarters and get the experience concurrently.

As you can infer from the either/or prerequisites, most CCR instructors are starting out new CCR guys with Tx21/35 in the "Mod 1" course. You show a Mod 1 card at the local FL fill station and they'll fill you up with 21/35 without a hesitation 'cause they know the "secret"... Personally, I'd rather have a new CCR diver on Tx21/35 at 130ft with a failure than one on air with a failure. The Air Dil recommendation just doesn't make that much sense versus Tx21/35, but that's another thread entirely. The student takes one week-long course, gets to use up to Tx21/35 and can complete dives to either 130 or 165 feet with up to 15 minutes of deco. I really am confused as to why the training agencies haven't really caught the materials and standards up to this concept already, but there may be a solid reason I'm not considering.

By going the "traditional route" the OP has to buy or rent all the OC Tec Gear, take two decompression courses, buy a rebreather, take a course versus just doing it all at once with a focus on a single set of gear, single style of diving - what's not to like?

BTW - That's exactly what I did. I skipped all the OC Tec, my first decompression course was on CCR. Then later, I decided to find out what the mystery was with OC Tec (because everyone said there was so much I didn't know) and took all the OC Tec courses available though full Trimix. The reality was the OC courses (at that point in my diving) were financially a waste of annual leave and money, but I enjoyed the courses, had a great time, and made some new dive buddies. I'll call the experience a win, but it was not "efficient".

 

[Octopusprime]

Octopusprime's questions are reasonable for this forum. He's looking to find out what path he needs to pursue in order to accomplish the sort of dives he wants to do. Some of his questions are a little off the mark to those with more training and experience but that is part of the learning curve and part of what this forum is for.

Octopusprime needs to take advice to seek training seriously (I believe he's been clear on that) and not to take that kind of advice as personal criticism. He also should be more careful of the name calling. Separate the argument from the person. It is fine to slam an idea or argument by all means but its not cool to attack the person behind the idea or argument with name calling.


Octopusprime - I suggest you do some reading up on gas management - I suggest searching up on "Rock Bottom" gas management to start with.
Here's a start NWGratefulDiver.com
Start monitoring your gas usage and establish what your typical SAC is for yourself.

Practice your buoyancy and trim in the water until you don't need to consciously think about them whilst task loaded for example shooting a DSMB.

Addendum
I should add that I'm in no way qualified or experienced enough to teach or even espouse anything in this area, but basic trim, buoyancy and planned gas management are things my instructors were very strong on. To paraphrase my instructor "If you can't hold a stop whilst task loaded - You aren't ready for mandatory deco!"

Thanks bergersau..

Advanced Scuba Discussions - A forum dedicated to discussing the transitional process of migrating from the traditional recreational diving envelope into more advanced areas such as advanced nitrox and trimix diving, decompression diving, cave diving and wreck penetration diving, blackwater diving, etc. This forum isn't a place to discuss technical diving per se - that's what our technical diving forums are for - but rather to discuss those baby steps to becoming a true advanced diver who's ready to step into tech.

I am not looking to go tech and dive 150 ft even this year but I am looking for peoples positive input on types of dives in my area and what would be appropriate requirements to do those dives I am interested in SAFELY.

---------- Post added February 3rd, 2015 at 10:28 AM ----------

Greetings Chris,
After reading your OP you sound much like I felt several years back.
I started with gathering a dry suit, a set of doubles, O2 bottle, regs that I needed, etc.
This didn't happen overnight and I took my time the whole time diving to Rec. standards.
Actually doing some really big multi-level dives to be sure I was comfortable being in the water for over an hr at a time.

After diving my doubles for a season with my dry suit I signed up for my first Tech step, Advanced Nitrox / Decompression Procedures TDI.
This was the finest training class I ever took, it opened the door I was looking for as far as training / dive planning.
It fulfilled my dive goals and I have enjoyed some spectacular deep dives in the Great Lakes.
It has given me a firm understanding of Decompression models and helped me find my dive limits as far as depth and time.

I have moved on into some other Tech. classes but the turning point for me was Adv. Nitrox / Deco.
I chose a instructor very carefully as it added a ton of information to my class and a lifelong friend!
This was my experience and we all find our own paths.
Good luck, dive safe, enjoy!
Remember it is supposed to be fun, Ive had to remind myself of that from time to time!

CamG

Thanks Cam, that sounds like totally realistic progression sounds like where I was going. I am going to work on becoming proficient in dry suit and doing more Long moderate depth dives then add doubles and then once comfortable with all of that then look at Deco. I just had no idea what deco stops would look like and have heard of some crazy long stops and hanging on a rope for 60 min of deco does not sound like fun. there is deco diving that can have tolerable deco stops. I am going to keep researching and getting more experience.

---------- Post added February 3rd, 2015 at 10:30 AM ----------

After reading this thread, I came to a pretty quick conclusion. The OP desires to make dives that are just about perfect for a rebreather. Though the initial investment required might be a bit higher, the OP might benefit from purchasing a quality used CCR. If the OP took CCR Mod 1 he would be able to use Tx21/35 (accomplishes the helium benefit and super easy to make) and sling a bottle of air (cheap bailout) and a bottle of O2 and be done. Using this approach he gets the bottom times and finishes up training in a week or so and doesn't have to worry about the horrifying cost of regularly cave filling Faber 112s with Tx30/30 which is going to be $100 to $200 (including the deco gases) for each dive.

I think if it were me, I would just go CCR and call it handled.

Author's Note: I have 3x sets of doubles and two rebreathers. The helium dives are on a rebreather, I'm just saying...

interesting ... I never thought about rebreather

---------- Post added February 3rd, 2015 at 10:51 AM ----------

Just to be clear, I have read every post of this thread. And as King A-Hole in the Technical Diving Community - Ask anyone in cave diving who the view as the biggest a-hole and the answer will be overwhelmingly, "Superlyte27" - Octipusprime you are acting like a wiener. So consider the source of that statement. I know you are feeling attacked, you are not. The first example was Rivers, who is just about the sweetest girl ever who never attacks anyone. I've read her post many times trying to get an inkling of attack. There was none. It was merely info. Quit being so defensive. People are trying to answer your needs in the best way they know possible. And seriously, if this thread was enough to threaten your manhood, then tech diving really isn't for you. Wait til you actually start making these dives and see the scrutiny you get from the tech crowd.

Now you're presented with a choice...
1. You can quit whining and attacking people. You can suck it up and take the advise and wisdom of the team here.
2. You can continue to play the victim and lash out at everyone, all the while alienating yourself in a crowd that never forgets. Oh, and it's a small community.

.

Superlyte27 Thanks for your input I have to say that post was well written and did not come off a weenie...lol I guess my point is THIS forum is advanced questions NOT a TECH forum. This is supposed to be a place where people can ask questions they do not know the answer too and explore future training even if they are not ready for it today. My goal of this post was just to find out if I should continue researching NOT if I should do it in 3 months?

The way I think about it is IF a new diver came up to me and said "I just finished my OW I want to do XXX wreck it is in 200 ft of water." I would not say they are in over their head. I would ask then what their time frame is, what is their next certification to get there.... Now in that conversation if they say they want to do it in 4 months, I would find a nice way to understand the time line if they can dive FT or just one or 2 dives a month. I would explain that my personal of the time line to become comfortable with a skill. Set a reasonable expectation and goal.

There was a post where I was asking about lights in low light environment and I got totally beet up by divers saying I was in over my head but no one asked any questions. all I wanted to know is if anyone uses tank lights or if they were a waste of money. Yes ever post cold be a page long with a disclaimer that "I am a new novice diver ... not looking for zero to hero... want to be SAFE..." but lets be honest everyone learns different. I learn from practical examples and by experience. so I use examples and walk through them and ask questions to find out what I am missing. 60% of all of my diving is with an IDC instructor and every dive is a training dive. Just trying to learn from multiple people experiences because everyone dives for different reasons.

 

[geoff w]

Just to be clear, I have read every post of this thread. And as King A-Hole in the Technical Diving Community - Ask anyone in cave diving who the view as the biggest a-hole and the answer will be overwhelmingly, "Superlyte27" - Octipusprime you are acting like a wiener...

I'm not a tech diver, so not qualified to comment on much of the discussion here. Someone pointed me to a nice article a few weeks ago that goes well with the discussion here - https://www.tdisdi.com/not-all-tech-divers-are-aholes/ It's on the internet, so it's got to be true, right?

 

[KevinNM]

By going the "traditional route" the OP has to buy or rent all the OC Tec Gear, take two decompression courses, buy a rebreather, take a course versus just doing it all at once with a focus on a single set of gear, single style of diving - what's not to like?

I don't do either, but I was talking about this with a tech instructor recently and she posed this question: So you have to bail out at the end of your dive due to a CO2 breakthrough. Is this the ideal time to have your first OC deco experience?

 

[Superlyte27]

Yes, Highwing, it can be taken IN CONJUCTION, but that's paying for two separate classes. If they go the traditional Technical CCR route through IANTD, that certifies them to I think 130 or 140'. And it is air diluent only. Instructors are charging upwards of 1k to add in trimix to the course.

And! You still have to have Advanced Nitrox to take that route. You can't go from an OW Nitrox Diver to essentially a trimix diluent diver without a few class in between. I have the standards in front of me. I'm an IANTD instructor.

 

[mselenaous]

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[Patoux01]

Yes, Highwing, it can be taken IN CONJUCTION, but that's paying for two separate classes. If they go the traditional Technical CCR route through IANTD, that certifies them to I think 130 or 140'. And it is air diluent only. Instructors are charging upwards of 1k to add in trimix to the course.

And! You still have to have Advanced Nitrox to take that route. You can't go from an OW Nitrox Diver to essentially a trimix diluent diver without a few class in between. I have the standards in front of me. I'm an IANTD instructor.

While I know the IANTD website is ****, I assume it's still up to date.
CCR Diver - IANTD - World Headquarters

It clearly says the course can be taken in conjunction. Now I know at least one instructor that will charge you 1500 AUD (1100 USD) for the whole thing and letting you dive a ccr going from "nothing". Though he will assess your skills before.
Also, I don't find anything in the standards (old version though, I can't seem to find a more recent one than 2003) saying it is air only, that would also go against what is on the website, which allows 160fsw (ie 48m)

Something is wrong here...