Sexism?

[Jill Heinerth]

I appreciate your thoughts Diver0001. This is about feelings in addition to factual research. Perceptions and anecdotal experiences are valid and important. I may perceive a comment as offensive, though the person who made it, may not have meant it in that manner. I'm trying to get a barometer of the public perceptions and create an article that is informative. It is not an attack on men. In fact many of the private responses I have received were from men, a number of whom identified gender biases they have struggled with. I can personally attest to the fact that sometimes men also face issues of sexism. They can sometimes feel that they are held to a higher standard on an expedition and feel the need to compete more aggressively than a woman who may be applauded for strong participation and working hard.

Like I said, I am interested in all experiences and anecdotes either privately or publicly. They all contribute to a conversation that is worth having. Thanks for your participation.

Jill

I think by using the words "will feel" hits the nail right on the head. I think if you're going to write a credible article about it you're going to need some academic back up. My advice would be to look for a professor of cultural anthropology (after all it's a global sport) or gender studies or something to that effect as a starting point and see if there is any theoretical or scientific evidence to suggest that scuba diving is inherently different than any other mixed gender activity..... or at the very least to get help postulating a credible theory that you write to.

Otherwise it will be just be like an opinion column in a newspaper, most of which are not with worth their weight in ink.

R..

 

[Diver0001]

I do believe a gender studies expert could help provide a context for anecdotes and personal experience. The problem I see with a lot of opinion pieces is that it generalizes too much from the experience of one person to the world as a whole, but you've been presented with a topic here that has a VERY different context in say, Saudi Arabia or Egypt than it does in Denmark or Canada.... and even those distinctions are fairly broad. You could maybe dodge the problem by focusing on one country or one sub-culture but then you wouldn't be addressing the issue of sexism in diving in the context in which diving takes place..... So you will need to choose your scope wisely. Perhaps an academic can help you get a handle on how they handle that very issue in their work. It would make the article much stronger if it wasn't just a "he said, she said" piece, if you ask me. Quotes from academics will help shore that up.

For what it's worth, I never for a moment thought you were lining up to write an "anti men" article. If it were still 1987 I may have, but I would like to think we've all gotten over that period to some extent....

To my way of thinking a "pro woman" standpoint does not equate to an "attack on men". Your public image suggest to me that you're very proud of your accomplishments and I had the impression that you see yourself as a leader in the sense of "encouraging women", which, again, does not equate to my way of thinking to "attacking men". I never felt threatened that way. If I were you, to keep it close to home I would focus the article on the positive aspects of what is possible for women in diving and make the sexism thing a "side bar" to some degree. That way you're staying true to your own passion, keeping the article positive in tone but without avoiding the obvious issue of sexism that underlies every mixed gender activity.

Just a thought. In any case good luck.

R..

 

[SubAquatix]

My point being that while diving STILL has sexism insofar that a diving sub-culture is part of a larger context, that the "amount" or "degree" or "type" of that sexism doesn't differ significantly.

I hope that helps to make my point clearer

R..

Pretty sure I understood you, and your explanation makes it seem even more likely. I just found it funny that you questioned her intentions as somewhat leading by using the word "still", but that you acknowledged that it (sexism), likely, still exists, since it seems to exist in other aspects of our life. You didn't say it definitely existed, but that it likely did. Seems her question, asking others if it still existed, was totally appropriate, based on your response.

Oh well, I can be a bit defensive of her (in a non sexist manner) since she laughed at my rather large physique all wrapped up in cave line!

 

[Roman_66]

Usually :
I open doors for ladies, I give lady first go in/out elevator, I open door of my car for lady, I provide support for lady if she is going out from a bus, I will suggest lady my help to move heavy stuff. All these regardless of lady age and our relations.
Am I sexist ? Probably, so this is who I am.

 

[tursiops]

Usually :
I open doors for ladies, I give lady first go in/out elevator, I open door of my car for lady, I provide support for lady if she is going out from a bus, I will suggest lady my help to move heavy stuff. All these regardless of lady age and our relations.
Am I sexist ? Probably, so this is who I am.

Yeah, I do the hold-the-door-open thing too.
Now, as I'm getting visibly older, I find some people are beginning to hold the door open for me! I kinda like it, sort of, a little bit, sometimes.

 

[Diver0001]

Oh well, I can be a bit defensive of her (in a non sexist manner) since she laughed at my rather large physique all wrapped up in cave line!

I might have too Nothing sexist about that. I don't even know what gender you are.

R..

 

[drrich2]

In my own experience, I have a lot of stories of hitting glass ceilings and having to work really hard to punch through.

Most everyone has the perception of, at some point in life, being treated unfairly. Once nice thing about being a white male is that when someone doesn't like me, while I may not know why, I don't even need to entertain the thought it might be because I'm black, a woman, etc...

Not in diving, but in a very different organization I've been in, there's been an issue with people playing 'the gender card.' If they don't get their way & get to dominate, it's because men are oppressing them. Or so one might think listening to them. Of course, when one takes a look at some of the crap they try to pull other possibilities become evident, but somehow not to them.

Sexism, racism and who-knows-how-many-other '-isms' are quite real, and hinder many people, yes. But there are also many people who view themselves as victims of prejudice when actually, it's not your race, gender, etc...that we take issue with. It's you and your bad ideas.

Richard.

 

[Diver0001]

Usually :
I open doors for ladies, I give lady first go in/out elevator, I open door of my car for lady, I provide support for lady if she is going out from a bus, I will suggest lady my help to move heavy stuff. All these regardless of lady age and our relations.
Am I sexist ? Probably, so this is who I am.

Is it sexist to want to present yourself as gallant to the opposite sex? There are a lot of "small gears" guiding our behaviour, you know. Some are genetic... I mean... we (both men and women) are literally hard-wired, for the most part, to see members of the opposite sex as attractive, desirable, perhaps potential lovers, partners, etc. Why do you hold a door open for a women? what benefit does it have to you? ... it's because she notices you, maybe an opening for social interaction ensues, maybe she thinks you're attractive or a good provider, a protector, a "real man" or whatever primal instinct it stimulates. The opposite is also true. Suppose you don't do it... what then? She may think you are callous, self absorbed, a poor provider or a poor protector, or even "stupid" etc etc etc.

In a diving context it may be the difference between convincing her that you are a "good buddy" or a "bad buddy".

Lots of small gears.

Is it human nature or is it sexism to hold open a door for a woman? Is it human nature or sexism to want to help a woman with her gear? What about if she's physically attractive? Is it sexism when both the male and female are hot, young, fit and single or is it only sexism when a middle aged married guy tries to help the hot, young, fit, single women on the boat with her gear?

Depending on who you are and the context the answer could be yes or no in a gazillion different contexts. It turns out that both evolutionary and culturally speaking that men and women are "sentenced" to have to deal with each other and the differences between us. Are those differences automatically "sexism"?

In some cases, yes, obviously. But is that the prevailing culture? .... of that, I'm no so sure.

R..

 

[Akimbo]

... Comments like "here little girl, let me help you with your doubles" is not taken as a polite offer. Perhaps it was meant as such but I can't help feel that I am being treated as less capable when dealing with my own gear when obviously I am not. Does that make sense?

OK, but understand that this perception can also be perceived as a little thin-skinned from a male’s perspective. I’m a shrimp in my field at 5'6", which granted isn’t known for sensitivity. Getting unceremoniously shoved aside by someone bigger, stronger, and/or younger than me was part of life offshore. I didn’t see any reason to take it personally even though I would have gotten the job done by working smarter. I also had no problem lending them a hand.

If indeed you are physically smaller than the “insensitive pig” offering assistance then you are relatively “little” just as I’m a runt. “Girl” might be a poor choice but “Lady” or “Woman” would be no better. The reality is that the physical burden of diving gear on a rolling deck can easily exceed everyone’s capacity. ATBE, a diver who is not as physically strong is “less capable when dealing with my own gear” than Herman the Brute.

The attached image from an old Navy Diving Manual shows divers and tenders at work and illustrates this point: There’s always somebody bigger and stronger. Yes, sometimes the less mature can be a little too proud of the fact and get pounded into the dirt when their assessment is overstated. Yes, it is good to explain your different sensibilities to men. However, our different sensibilities are at the root of sexism in both genders. I think the bigger question is how amazing it is that both genders are still so mysterious to each other.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

What is sexism and how does it relate to scuba diving? Women are typically smaller and considerably weaker and are therefore at a disadvantage when dealing with heavy gear. In many other situations, they are not at a disadvantage.. but scuba diving is not one of them. Shall we act like this is not the case?

I try to help other divers get their gear on and off and provide assistance in a manner that I expect will be appreciated. Hopefully that is not sexist.

Also, I should throw out the idea that after being a DM for MANY different people, women are more often BETTER divers than men. They tend to ask for help when needed, they tend to be a little more cautious in challenging situations and they are more likely to ask for clarification if something is not spelled out well in a dive briefing. They tend to get in less trouble than men.

Macho men on the other hand... Won't ask for help, won't admit (to themselves) that a situation is getting to be more than they are comfortable with and they are a lot harder to rescue than a small woman...