Cave Training and Etiquette Real or Imaginary?

[Omisson]

How would one go about finding a "good" cave diving instructor if not somewhat informed about the "bad" cave diving instructors?

Look at the boards- listen to those who have a lot of dive experience and what their opinions are .... Check out the type, length, and credentials of the instructor.

Are they both NACD and NSS-CDS instructors in addition to GUE, NAUI, TDI, IANTD.... Do they cave dive regularly, have they made contributions of note in the cave diving world (agency boards, book authors, diving style notables)..... Do their peers speak well of them... Do they respond to questions and give you attention BEFORE class begins as you are vetting them....

And consider how they structure their course... It's length, requirements...and limitations.

 

[boulderjohn]

There are a lot of things that go into being a good instructor. Having high standards for student performance is only one of those things, although it is an important one. You can get a sense of that by asking a bunch of cave divers, "Other than YOUR instructor, who would you send somebody to?". Cave divers dive with buddies and see the performance of people trained by a bunch of different instructors.

However, it is also important to consider the ability of the person you go to to TEACH. One of my cave classes was more of a 5 day evaluation than any kind of learning experience, and it was disheartening.

Having high standards for student performance is one thing. Having the instructional skill needed to bring students to that high performance level is another. When you have an instructor with high standards for evaluation and low ability to instruct, you have a recipe for extreme frustration for students. I once knew a tech instructor who said something like "In tech instruction we don't hold your hand the way they do in PADI recreational classes." It turned out that what he meant by that was "I won't be telling you how to do things. I won't be demonstrating anything. I'll just be mocking you and failing you when you can't do it right." If using good instructional technique to bring students from the novice to advanced level is holding their hands, then I want someone holding my hand.

 

[scuba127]

Well said.

 

[GDI]

To illustrate the point one can see these pictures of just pure bad practices. Note I could not show whom the flutter kicking diver was, as it is unlikely I could have secured permission to use the photo to any point where identification of the diver is possible (legal stuff here). I think these few example demonstrate the level of training and sustainment of skills going on. Poorly tied in reels and placements with no stress reducing spring tension knot, bad propulsion techniques causing silt outs (thank God for the high flow). Some of the pictures shows the wear and tear on the cave structure. I am glad these divers used reels I can say that these pis were taken today at Manatee Springs

This has got to stop

Ok as stated I said I would provide some pic of tie offs. Funny thing is as I was taking these pic I was asked if I could do these while underwater? Ah Yes Of course I can and always with a tension Spring (TS) was my response:
Tying into a caveline as if on a jump, tying onto the goldline, a simple placement, a primary straight wrap (not my preference), primary with TS (x 2 views), a secondary tie off, a single wrap

 

[GDI]

Having high standards for student performance is one thing. Having the instructional skill needed to bring students to that high performance level is another. When you have an instructor with high standards for evaluation and low ability to instruct, you have a recipe for extreme frustration for students. I once knew a tech instructor who said something like "In tech instruction we don't hold your hand the way they do in PADI recreational classes." It turned out that what he meant by that was "I won't be telling you how to do things. I won't be demonstrating anything. I'll just be mocking you and failing you when you can't do it right." If using good instructional technique to bring students from the novice to advanced level is holding their hands, then I want someone holding my hand.

Good Point

I find it best to tell them what will be demonstrated, Demonstrate what needs to be and then tell them what you had just shown them. Then have them do it.... repeatedly until a foundation is set.

 

[TSandM]

My first GUE instructor was an incredible nice man with a huge commitment to his students, but he had trouble articulating the "how" of fixing problems. When the instructor has demonstrated, and the student attempts to emulate and fails, it's really important for the instructor to be able not only to tell the student WHAT he screwed up, but also what he has to do to fix the problem. I spent a tremendous amount of time practicing on my own, making the same mistakes over and over again, because I couldn't figure out why they were happening. An instructor who saw the issue and told me what to change solved one of the problems in a single dive.

 

[Aotus]

Ok as stated I said I would provide some pic of tie offs. Funny thing is as I was taking these pic I was asked if I could do these while underwater? Ah Yes Of course I can and always with a tension Spring (TS) was my response:
Tying into a caveline as if on a jump, tying onto the goldline, a simple placement, a primary straight wrap (not my preference), primary with TS (x 2 views), a secondary tie off, a single wrap

I like all of those except the secondary tie off, which I would wrap once back the other way to lock it.

 

[Tickler]

Not sure if this is an isolated frame of mind but during one of my cave classes I was told by my instructor that because I was local that I would be held to a higher standard but that people that take classes from out of town where there are less caves to dive get a pass on the finer points of cave diving. At the time it made sense but as I have learned more that statement makes me wince.

 

[boulderjohn]

Not sure if this is an isolated frame of mind but during one of my cave classes I was told by my instructor that because I was local that I would be held to a higher standard but that people that take classes from out of town where there are less caves to dive get a pass on the finer points of cave diving. At the time it made sense but as I have learned more that statement makes me wince.

That makes no sense to me. Just the opposite. Everyone should be held to the same standard to make sure they are safe. If you are going to make exceptions based on locality (which I am not advocating), it would seem to me that the local person could be held to a lower standard on the theory that there will be more immediate personal practice to perfect skills. The out of town diver (like me) will be more likely to have skills erode with time.

 

[karstdvr]

Not sure if this is an isolated frame of mind but during one of my cave classes I was told by my instructor that because I was local that I would be held to a higher standard but that people that take classes from out of town where there are less caves to dive get a pass on the finer points of cave diving. At the time it made sense but as I have learned more that statement makes me wince.

Lets hope not!
But, sometimes I see that cave c-card to be used as inclusion into the cave diving social media that is prevalent on forums,not really the desire to cave dive much. Have seen frequently someone go from OW and then to cave diving,followed by a plethora of postings by that individual. That being said, even if that person is an infrequent gold line diver only, they deserve the same level of class,for the money paid.