Shannon Lewis - The True Story

[victorzamora]

I'm wondering what the exit signal referred to in the quoted NACD manual excerpt is. That's make a difference. Any buddy with a thumb in the air gets a personal escort to the benches. A wave off gets nary a thought

 

[LiteHedded]

I was certainly trained that any diver can call the dive at any time for any reason, and if it is a two person team, that will certainly end it for the team. I had never before read or heard it said that in a larger team, not only must all members end the dive, they must all return to the surface together.

If that is indeed the meaning of the rule, then all people doing the "wave offs" being described in this thread are violating it, and they are leaving themselves open to liability should anything happen to a departing teammate or teammates.

well I believe there was some discipline from the nacd on this case. Maybe this was the reason?

 

[boulderjohn]

well I believe there was some discipline from the nacd on this case. Maybe this was the reason?

Not from the documents I have seen. The discipline was for a totally unrelated issue related to administrative issues.

 

[Warren_L]

I was not NACD trained myself, so I had never seen that sentence before, and I had never heard that the "golden rule" of cave diving includes the concept that if one member of a group decides to end a dive, all members of the group must decide to end the dive immediately.

This is how I was taught too. Recently I was on a dive in Ginnie in a team of three. We had planned to go to the insulation room, but when we got to the park bench, one of the team had an unfixable post failure. The post was shut down and we ended up exiting together right to the surface. We had just gone in so there was nothing in the way of deco needed. This gave us the opportunity to discuss and re-plan the dive as a team of two. However, regardless of the circumstances of the cave dive, we have always exited as a complete team to the surface. It's just the way we were taught.

 

[ajduplessis]

If a diver calls a dive the entire team aborts the dive, no questions asked!!!

 

[victorzamora]

If a diver calls a dive the entire team aborts the dive, no questions asked!!!

To me, though, there's a difference in "calling the dive" and waving buddies off.

 

[cerich]

This suggests that if on any dive with any group of dives of any ability level one of them waves off the others and ends the dive, this rule will be brought up in a subsequent lawsuit if anything bad happens, as it was in this case.

Training standards of any agency apply ONLY to the instructors and leadership of said agency teaching and/or assisting in a course. They do NOT apply to divers diving post training.

Before the argument of following them being good prudence to avoid a lawsuit or liability, keep in mind that anybody can be sued anytime, and proving that ex student of an agency should know and follow training standards would be a pretty near impossible argument to make. Students aren't taught standards except in leadership, students are taught some aspect of diving.

I see folks saying a non leadership diver violated "standards" all the time, when in fact there aren't any for them. They may exceed the recommendations for the level of training, show gross stupidity, not follow the rules for the dive boat/site they are diving at or even laws...but training agency standards? Nope

 

[TSandM]

In my job, I face ambiguity and risk assessments every day. The easy answer to every patient is to admit them to the hospital; it removes a significant amount of the liability from my shoulders, and is a decision which is extremely easy to defend. It's not the BEST decision for a lot of players . . . it's inconvenient and sometimes expensive for the patient, puts them at risk of all the bad things that happen to people in hospitals, costs insurance companies a great deal of money, clogs up the emergency department while we wait for inpatient beds, and annoys the daylights out of the hospitalists, who have to take care of people hospitalized because of the fear of very remote risks.

On the other hand, sending someone home and having something bad happen to them WILL end up in my lap, whether what I did was rational or not. I've been through that once, and have no desire to go through it again, just as I would assume Jim has no desire to go through his horrible experience again.

In diving, it's a little easier to commit to making the ridiculously conservative risk-averse decision as a matter of course, because the only costs involved are your lost dive, possibly lost entry fee, and possibly third teammate's annoyance. But we all get in the water with an intent to do a dive, and the effort involved in getting there can vary from a 30 minute drive from one's house, to a 6 hour airplane flight, a rental car, rental tanks, a rental car, and an hour's drive to a hot, humid, insect-ridden site. The more you want the dive, the harder it is to adhere to that bright line of "the team exits the water together", especially if it isn't really a team . . . although I would never, personally, dive that way. You get in the water with me, you're a teammate; that's just how I tick.

Still, I'm quite sure that all of us have, as experience has grown, accepted a less-than-optimal turn of events with the attitude that, "We're all very experienced divers, we can deal with this.". And honestly, I would expect ANYONE with a cave cert to be able to make an uncomplicated, solo ascent through 20 feet of clear water without dying, unless they were dying when they started that ascent. The "admit anyone" mentality would accompany any and all divers to the SURFACE, and perhaps to the stairs. The "devil take the hindmost" approach would be to allow a teammate with a gear malfunction to turn a dive WITHIN THE CAVE and exit alone, something I would not do under any circumstances, no matter what the gear malfunction was. There is obviously a huge middle ground, where one weighs a great many variables to come up with a rational response -- What is the experience level, and what do I know of the diver leaving? What are the risks to that diver between her and the surface, as best I can assess them? What is the investment of the third teammate, and what do I owe to that person, and what are the lessons that person will learn from my actions (especially relevant when that person is a student or a less experienced teammate).

My GUE training is the "admit everybody" type -- but I've certainly seen those principles honored more in the breach. In the specific case of Ginnie, I think you have two choices -- wait at the bottom of the chimney and watch the diver to the log, or the surface, depending on your level of concern (and it's quite possible that, whatever took this lady, someone at the bottom of the chimney, even if they had seen it happen, could not have responded fast enough to change the outcome), or surface with the diver. It makes no sense to stop midway at the log, except for a safety stop (or deco stop, if mandatory).

I sent home a 70 year old patient who had had chest pain last night. It's not standard of care (risk-averse protocol following behavior) but there were enough things that made me think it was reasonable, that I stepped out of the normal march. I could get nailed for it -- Jim did. I'm sure if I did, I'd question my decision for the rest of my life, and probably skew my behavior in the conservative direction. But I might well do a disservice to a great many people, by changing my behavior as a result of a n of 1.

 

[Scubadude_LA]

To me, though, there's a difference in "calling the dive" and waving buddies off.

That's what I was thinking.
I understand the Golden Rule. The OP stated that she was left alone at the deco log, which gives a clear view and egress to the surface from 20’ if I remember correctly. They never entered the cave zone. The max depth was not much and dive time very short. I realize that we don’t want bad press at cave sites to draw attention to what the public sees as cowboy diving. But, seems like this could have easily happened in an openwater situation, and that it was an openwater situation at the time they parted ways. She signaled OK from 20 feet after a couple of minutes of diving with an apparent equalization issue (happens all the time) and waved the group off while in 20’ of openwater. I think this is done often in openwater. If someone at the level of basic cave waved me off in openwater, I would assume they were ok and saying have a nice dive. The health issues were not discussed pre-dive so who could have known. The Golden Rule is there for a reason, but in this case just seems like too much emphasis here is placed on how the dive was terminated and that is was supposed to be a cave dive. It’s not like she was left 500’ back and told to exit alone. This would have looked like an common equalization issue and that she was in good health and responding like it was not a big deal, go on without me. A few quick flashes of her light indicating an issue instead of an OK would have resulted in the team exiting together in a hurry, no doubt. No matter where I am (1000’ feet back or openwater) if I don’t think I’m right, there will be a flashing light, not an OK. Would the result have been different if they all surfaced together? Maybe, maybe not. From the circumstances I’ve read here , it just doesn’t seem like the OP was being unreasonable. Or, you can nit pic the Golden Rule happily ever after if you are that bored with life.
As is always stated: Legally there is no law that a cert is required to do any dive, including a 20’ openwater dive to the log in Ginnie.
Then we have solo divers…… Which is a good thing, since I probably just got inducted into the Buddy Blacklist Hall of Fame with my post. So be it.

 

[The Chairman]

In diving, it's a little easier to commit to making the ridiculously conservative risk-averse decision as a matter of course, because the only costs involved are your lost dive, possibly lost entry fee, and possibly third teammate's annoyance.

It's even easier: no tag-a-longs allowed. That's what many instructors are resorting to. It's a shame as I like shadowing training dives.