NACD Instructor standards violation

[cerich]

if i remember correctly, this was during the time 40 fathom was closed. and i really didn't want trip after trip after trip of getting blown out, i wanted to actually do the class. larry scheduled mix *and traveled to florida from virginia* three times before actually getting the dives in.

That doesn't cut it... not even close. Sorry.

 

[karstdvr]

That doesn't cut it... not even close. Sorry.

You are right,but lets not vilify Babyduck,because it took tremendous courage to bring this up on a forum. I don't want to vilify the instructor because it happened, and is over with. What I will vilify is we have people saying lets fix a broken system, and lets have a particular agency stand above the fray to be the shining example of professionalism,but fail to acknowledge that something like this is wrong, or vocalizing against this practice-that is being a leader in the industry.

 

[kafkaland]

it doesn't really affect the people currently in the sport. Fact is that we get the info one way or another. But 5 years from now some new cave diver won't have the opportunity to learn from it.

Seccond that. I'm a cave newbie, and read through quite a few accident reports before my cavern / info course. They illustrated much better how accidents actually happen than anything in the course materials or the instructor's presentation.

 

[Omisson]

IUCRR should operate on the basis of if they do a recovery the deets get posted to their website.

If if some law enforcement agency objects they can send their own people in there.

Unless you are a member of the IUCRR I don't think that's your call to make.

They shouldn't do something because YOU want them to.

 

[PfcAJ]

Unless you are a member of the IUCRR I don't think that's your call to make.

They shouldn't do something because YOU want them to.

I can voice my opinion all I want.

 

[boulderjohn]

2. The instructor must have a qualifying full cave instructor certification
from a qualifying cave diver training organization. (See your
PADI Office for more information about qualifying certifications and
organizations.)

Offline for two days--yes, I misread. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

 

[nakatomi]

Makes total sense, this was a deep class with Hendleys being used as the source of depth. There was separation between the student and instructor, because the student went down the old main line. One has to think that if this class was performed in open water versus the instructor having him exceed his certification level,then perhaps that accident wouldn't have happened. Look at this scenario from another stand point,but add the OP situation. Intro diver, who with an instructor can technically dive one level above their training goes to Hendley's for the deep part of the class. There is separation of student and instructor, so at this point the student returns to an intro level, and has to use skills they have not really learned to make a self exit.

Having given your reply some thought, I would have to agree with you in regard to comparing to the Hendley's castle dive scenarios.
It may not be all that far fetched to look for similarities after all.

 

[karstdvr]

Having given your reply some thought, I would have to agree with you in regard to comparing to the Hendley's castle dive scenarios.
It may not be all that far fetched too look for similarities after all.

The pity is we keep repeating the same mistakes in cave diving because we forget the past, and there is an unfortunate end result. For example, the one certification level that has had most accidents (not medical issues, but true cave diving accidents) is the intro level, and this has come from this group stepping outside their level of certification. For example some accidents over the last few years will show visual jumps, DPV use etc. I think intro is a great certification, and history shows if you stay in the limits, it is safe, but exceeding these limits has negative consequences. Hence, taking an intro certified diver into a full cave situation for another class is not well advised.

 

[Hetland]

The pity is we keep repeating the same mistakes in cave diving because we forget the past, and there is an unfortunate end result. For example, the one certification level that has had most accidents (not medical issues, but true cave diving accidents) is the intro level, and this has come from this group stepping outside their level of certification. For example some accidents over the last few years will show visual jumps, DPV use etc. I think intro is a great certification, and history shows if you stay in the limits, it is safe, but exceeding these limits has negative consequences. Hence, taking an intro certified diver into a full cave situation for another class is not well advised.

Wouldn't visual jumps be forbidden at any level?

Don't we also have full cave divers killing themselves with scooters?

I get what you're saying, and agree that intro gives one plenty of room to hang, but it's not just Intro divers that are making these mistakes.

 

[boulderjohn]

IUCRR should operate on the basis of if they do a recovery the deets get posted to their website.

If if some law enforcement agency objects they can send their own people in there.

Incident reports are typically public information (the first page anyway). The rest of the report could be obtained by a foia request. You might have some redaction of personal information, but I'm assuming you could get the report that they submitted to the death investigator.

There was an extensive debate about IUCRR reports in Cave Divers Forum a year or two ago. A representative explained why they had stopped issuing reports, and it was all about potential liability. They said their reports are available from the police through FOIA, but they would not be publishing anything themselves.

Investigating incidents like this can be very challenging. You will find that some people will be very, very tight-lipped, even refusing to talk at all. Some will give information that is possibly false. Why? Well, let's look at the latest incident at Ginnie. Some clearly think that one individual made a poor decision. You can talk about whether or not you feel a poor decision was made all you want in a public forum like this. You are protected by a variety of laws. Publish that opinion in an official report, and it is a different situation. Someone who may or may not have made a bad decision may describe things in a way that will make the decision not look so bad. Someone who may or may not have made a bad decision will be advised by an attorney not to talk at all. They certainly don't want an official report published that puts them in a bad light, and they will do what they can to prevent it. It is very frustrating to try to find out what really happened. When you are done, you cannot have complete confidence that what you believe to be true is really true, and you end up omitting anything controversial.