Advanced Open Water Certification

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SEI and NAUI have rescue courses. The rescue courses though are more/as much about preventing accidents before they happen and expanding on the basic rescue skills in the OW class. The belief is that a buddy team or individual diver who is certified to dive independently should be able to render assistance to their buddy or another diver. Is it going to be perfect? No. But it's better than thinking you can do nothing if you don't have a "rescue" diver card. Accidents happen when there are no rescue divers, DM's, or Instructors around. I'd like to know that if my loved ones were diving somewhere and had a problem they would not be SOL because a rescue diver was not there. Their buddy should be able to assist them and get them out of the water.
The other belief is that you should not have to take anything other than OW to attend a rescue class. I have had students not at all interested in AOW in any form. They don't want to ever go deep or dive at night. Some are content to be mediocre at UW Nav or let their buddy do it. But they do want to know how to help themselves and another diver. Should they be prohibited from taking rescue? I don't think so.
 
Part of the problem here is the comparisons of apples and oranges.

Define "rescue skills" - are they tired diver tows, weight belt ditching, ooa drills ? Are they surface rescue breathing or unconscious diver ascent from the bottom?

Each agency has a varied set of definitions of these things. Part of the problem in comparing programs.

---------- Post added May 11th, 2015 at 11:14 PM ----------

SEI and NAUI have rescue courses. The rescue courses though are more/as much about preventing accidents before they happen and expanding on the basic rescue skills in the OW class. The belief is that a buddy team or individual diver who is certified to dive independently should be able to render assistance to their buddy or another diver. Is it going to be perfect? No. But it's better than thinking you can do nothing if you don't have a "rescue" diver card. Accidents happen when there are no rescue divers, DM's, or Instructors around. I'd like to know that if my loved ones were diving somewhere and had a problem they would not be SOL because a rescue diver was not there. Their buddy should be able to assist them and get them out of the water.
The other belief is that you should not have to take anything other than OW to attend a rescue class. I have had students not at all interested in AOW in any form. They don't want to ever go deep or dive at night. Some are content to be mediocre at UW Nav or let their buddy do it. But they do want to know how to help themselves and another diver. Should they be prohibited from taking rescue? I don't think so.

Jim makes an excellent point - some people just don't want to do certain types of diving- but should be able to take SOME advanced classes that help both them and others who are diving.

While a limited diver as described by Jim should be free to get a rescue cert - I don't think they should be able to earn a Master Scuba Diver rating.
 
Jim, Can you briefly cite examples of what is basic rescue in SEI & NAUI OW courses as opposed to the expanding of (which) skills in the Rescue Courses? Same question regarding prevention--what do you learn about prevention in the rescue courses that was not taught in SEI/NAUI OW? Perhaps stuff relating to equipment/diver mental state, etc.?

Not at all agency bashing, but I'd like to know your thoughts on the PADI Rescue Course vs. the SEI/NAUI ones. Is there much difference?
 
Dive ops are not in the habit of getting customers hurt. They are not going to accept AOW for technical dives. - but a dive OP is not going to last by putting customers in harms way.
*** No your AOW card only says AOW - specialties are not listed - hence many folks that say AOW is a check the box c-card...
While I agree with most of what you had to say, my experience in the Florida Keys is that most shops don't worry or care about your experience or ability if you pay the fees. I saw one diver put his BC on the tank upside down and the captain thought it was funny.
 
Jim, Can you briefly cite examples of what is basic rescue in SEI & NAUI OW courses as opposed to the expanding of (which) skills in the Rescue Courses? Same question regarding prevention--what do you learn about prevention in the rescue courses that was not taught in SEI/NAUI OW? Perhaps stuff relating to equipment/diver mental state, etc.?

Not at all agency bashing, but I'd like to know your thoughts on the PADI Rescue Course vs. the SEI/NAUI ones. Is there much difference?
I can do that after work. Shut the computer down early due to bad storms rolling through the area last night. On my way to work now.
 
Don't get me started on the not needing 20 logged dives. I have seen and dove with people who have passed PADI rescue that clearly I would not want to come rescue me.

Rescuing someone else is only part of the value of a Rescue class. The other ... more important, to my concern ... objective of that class is to help the diver recognize a problem that could result in a diving incident and take steps to avoid it before it happens. That part of the class is especially valuable for the newer diver, who doesn't know what they don't know and are therefore more subject to inadvertently putting themselves in a bad situation.

Diving skills ... or lack thereof ... aside, I'm a firm believer that Rescue is the most important class a diver can take after OW, and that it belongs in the curriculum BEFORE any class that gives the diver the impression that they're somehow qualified to go deeper ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added May 12th, 2015 at 04:51 AM ----------

Yeah, I knew about SEI--sorry forgot. Does NAUI teach all of the rescue skills in OW? I would assume there is no NAUI Rescue Course?

NAUI mandates that some form of rescue skill be taught in all classes. At the OW level, that amounts to the three tired diver tows, air sharing techniques, and unconscious diver recovery from 20 feet. With the exception of the latter, the skills are taught in every agency's OW class.

There is, in fact, a NAUI Rescue Course ... and to my concern it's one of their better offerings ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added May 12th, 2015 at 04:57 AM ----------

I did PADI AOW at 80 dives and Rescue at 120 dives. For me, this was a nice balance between experience and training. I got a lot out of each course. To each their own, I'm personally not a fan of cramming all the training up front without any diving experience or perspective. You certainly do not know what you don't know

As a rule of thumb I like to have my students do at least 20 dives post OW prior to taking AOW. This is so that they can get comfortable with their basic skills before we start working on refining them and adding new skills. Everyone's different though, and I will generally go diving with someone who's interested in the class to evaluate where they're at before deciding that they're ready to take it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added May 12th, 2015 at 04:59 AM ----------



Jim makes an excellent point - some people just don't want to do certain types of diving- but should be able to take SOME advanced classes that help both them and others who are diving.

While a limited diver as described by Jim should be free to get a rescue cert - I don't think they should be able to earn a Master Scuba Diver rating.

... in the NAUI system, they would not be able to, since the Master Scuba Diver rating consists of the diving portion of the DM training ... and Rescue Diver is a prerequisite ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Same with SEI. The SEI Master Diver cert is essentially instructor level knowledge and skills without the teaching portion.

To get back to TMHeimer's questions. I will tie all this in with the original question regarding AOW so I stay on topic.

Bob already answered for NAUI so it saves me from having to get out those books.

SEI requires at the OW level non responsive diver from depth, panicked diver at the surface, and rescue tow while stripping gear. An optional skill is supporting a diver at the surface and helping them establish positive buoyancy. Mandatory in my classes.

These tie in with our advanced level (AOW) classes in that they are required skills for the class. I was part of the team that wrote and edited the SEI advanced level guidelines. After having had several students come from other agencies that did not have this requirement I felt it important to include those in the classes. When the new standards were written it was at my insistence that those skills be required for any advanced level students who came to us from other agencies. There are two options to meet this standard. Include the skills in the class itself at some point as part of one of the dives or as a separate dive. Or remediation of the skills prior to admission to the class. I choose the way to cover this based on the student. Some will be required to learn them before the class. Others get the skills tossed in on one of the dives. Usually the "buddy skills and assist" dive that is required for the class I teach.

The reasoning for this is pretty simple. You have students with a card that now gives them access to dives and sites with a higher degree of risk. This has the potential to expose them to greater stress and to expose them to others that may be experiencing higher stress and more challenging conditions. The rationale is that due to this we want divers to be prepared to assist themselves, a buddy, or another diver. There is not always going to be a rescue diver, DM, or Instructor there to handle an emergency.

Given the higher risk of these dives it is also possible that there will be some apprehension on the part of other new(er) divers doing them. This can lead to mistakes, omitted items, missing something in the buddy check, and general stress. These are why I also recommend Advanced Level (AOW) training after Rescue has been taken. The Rescue class goes deep into recognizing problems before they turn into incidents or accidents. There is heavy emphasis on overall awareness. Seeing equipment issues, seeing stress in divers, knowing when to step in and head off an issue. These are the extra items as well as more advanced care and first aid. The SEI course also includes O2 provider. It's not a separate course.

To me it makes more sense to better prep divers to respond to an emergency before you give them an advanced card as Bob stated.

Requiring a nav dive when many accidents happen on the surface to newer diver is just silly. Requiring one deep dive that is not even conducted properly with enough information to make it as safe as it could be before rescue is downright dumb. Before anyone does a deep dive they should have some kind of rescue training given the increased risk.

How much is actually learned on the AOW Nav dive anyway? I've seen a few of these done at various places and for the most part they are a cluster. It is obvious that no instruction was given as to functioning as a team, communication, or proper nav techniques. Students are given tasks that, while they may work in warm clear water, in lower vis common to my area they set them up to fail. Especially when their buoyancy and trim are not well defined, they have never been shown or required to do a proper turn, and they have had 15 -20 minutes of compass practice on dry land walking.

When you take rescue before AOW it increases the understanding that this is a dangerous activity. You need to take it seriously. It reinforces teamwork and situational awareness. It emphasizes the importance of effective and clear communication.

As for whose is better? This is one that I am not going to choose one over the other. The NAUI student manual is the best one IMO of the three. It has the most useful material. The PADI manual has a lot of content. The SEI is the thinnest but that's due to the expectation that the instructor will add material and supplement it with their own experience and knowledge. Plus we can use other references as well.

All three suck in one area that I feel is important. The after effects on the rescuer. There is squat about that in any meaningful manner. It's why I wrote an essay on PTSD in recreational rescues and include it in my course. It's another one of those articles I send out free to anyone.

Each course can be great or very poor depending on the instructor. Just going through the motions by the book in all of them will result in a mediocre, at best, experience. The instructor needs to use some imagination and add a bit of realism to the course. I've heard of instructors getting the local fire dept or EMS involved as part of their own con ed training. Having an ambulance or heavy rescue truck show up and cart someone off down the road would be pretty cool. I take and try to get as many different configurations as possible as far as gear goes to show. My dream course would be to have a chopper land and take away a "victim".

So as to which one is best? The one put on by the instructor with imagination and willing victims:shocked2: who enjoy acting the part:D. The worst - probably the one done by the book with no imagination used and just the motions gone through.

Any good one will make the diver better prepared and safer in the AOW class that follows.
 
I am curious - what are the expectations of a rescue diver after class? Is it to engage in all rescues as they occur or can you pick and choose?
Does a rescue diver have a duty of care to every victim?
I do not have a rescue cert.
 
I am curious - what are the expectations of a rescue diver after class? Is it to engage in all rescues as they occur or can you pick and choose?
Does a rescue diver have a duty of care to every victim?
I do not have a rescue cert.

A rescue diver has no official position or obligation beyond any other diver. It's not like you are called out to participate in a rescue. Your certification gives you skills that should make you a more effective participant in a situation that happens to occur while you are there. I have engaged in every rescue opportunity since I got that certification--which is a big fat zero. I have never seen anyone who needed rescuing.

In some of the scenarios at the heart of the rescue class, I have to wonder how many times the work has been done to positive effect. For example, you learn how to bring an unconscious diver to the surface should you come across one. I wonder how often that has happened in world history, and I wonder how many such victims have ever been revived. The most challenging skill is bringing an unconscious, non-breathing diver to shore while stripping both that diver and yourself of all equipment and providing continuous mouth to mouth resuscitation. I wonder how often that skill has been used in real life, and I wonder how often it has led to the revival of the victim.
 
The latter exercise has been removed in some programs as far as the continuous rescue breathing . Mainly because it's damn near impossible to guarantee you've got a good airway. It's believed to be more important to get them to a solid surface where you can do chest compressions. Every time you stop to get a couple breaths in properly you delay care. As well as get O2 going. The timed swims we did showed that if the victim is not breathing and has no pulse which you need to assume, wasting time with continuos rescue breathing virtually guarantees brain damage if you can get them back. Plus a rescuer whose adrenaline is going is likely to try too hard to get in position to deliver the breaths and push the victim's head under. It's better to get them to where you can at least stand if from shore. Or on the boat where real cate can be delivered.
 
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