Handing Off a Pony Bottle

[cool_hardware52]

No, that was not the real question raised in this thread. It was simply the idea of handing off the pony. I read (again) last night in another thread where someone mentioned this handing off issue... and since I didn't want to derail that thread, I thought it was worthy of a discussion of that particular point.

Obviously, handing off a pony bottle does provide a certain level of flexibility to handle a very unique and unusual emergency, but I just don't see it as being worth mentioning within the hierarchy of potential benefits of having a slung bottle as opposed to a back mounted one.

Ah, you get to pick your question, I get to pick mine.

Tobin

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Ah, you get to pick your question, I get to pick mine.

Tobin

Why not start a new thread then? It is a worthwhile topic, but pony bottle threads tend to ramble far and wide and I thought this specific questions could/should be addressed.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Why not start a new thread then? It is a worthwhile topic, but pony bottle threads tend to ramble far and wide and I thought this specific questions could/should be addressed.

My question is exactly on topic, whether you recognize it or not.

Why not start a new thread? Frankly the entire topic of "pony bottles" makes me shudder.

Tobin

 

[DaleC]

Boulderjohn gets it.

I do not think in terms of this is my pony bottle, this is my stage. It is just a small cylinder of gas. How I use it depends on the dive and what I want to accomplish. Words like pony (and the hubris that comes with it) are artificial constructs, nothing more. I get that these rules of thumb may keep new divers safe until they can gain experience to think for themselves but advanced divers should be able to think in terms of actual needs and not fake terms.

So, from a thinking divers POV, why can you not figure your pony bottle into your dive plan if the volume allows it. What deficiency in your skill prevents it. When you look at it like that you quickly see that such a rule is really a bandaid for lack of ability. Sure you tell the new diver not to do it, because they lack ability, but after a while one should be able to gain a working knowledge of needs and how to use sources to meet those needs.

If your plan is not to use your pony because it makes sense in real terms then it is a good plan. But if you cling to your pony as some sort of last gasp hail Mary container to save your a$$ then you have strayed pretty far from using skill to stay safe.

 

[azmodan50]

But let me ask, why do you not donate the pony. Do you have some alternative plan when your buddy goes OOA other than ending the dive. Is it hard to refill. Does that gas cost more than back gas or is the mouthpeice difficult to disinfect.

I've already answered these earlier, but here goes.

I don't donate my pony bottle because it is my "Get out of trouble free" gas. I bring it to avoid a catastrophic disaster.

I do have an alternative plan if my buddy goes OOA. It's exactly the same as someone that doesn't bring a pony bottle. I hand over my primary, switch to my Air2 and ascend.

And do you mean to tell me that if your buddy went OOA and you donated your pony bottle, that you would continue diving? I guess you could continue diving until your buddy sucked down the air in the pony bottle and THEN you can share air to the surface. But I am a little more conservative. I don't consider extending a dive by any amount time worth the potential risks.

 

[uncfnp]

I've already answered these earlier, but here goes.

I don't donate my pony bottle because it is my "Get out of trouble free" gas. I bring it to avoid a catastrophic disaster.

I do have an alternative plan if my buddy goes OOA. It's exactly the same as someone that doesn't bring a pony bottle. I hand over my primary, switch to my Air2 and ascend.

And do you mean to tell me that if your buddy went OOA and you donated your pony bottle, that you would continue diving? I guess you could continue diving until your buddy sucked down the air in the pony bottle and THEN you can share air to the surface. But I am a little more conservative. I don't consider extending a dive by any amount time worth the potential risks.

I am pretty liberal with my general philosophy in life and diving and basically to each as own. But I admit that I just don't get this either. Gas is gas. Yes, during the dive the pony is your "catastrophic" go to plan. But, as you said yourself, once you donate (pony or secondary or primary) the dive is over. What possible castastropic event do you imagine on your ascent that only that reserved pony bottle will save the day?

Seriously curious.

 

[azmodan50]

Boulderjohn gets it.

I do not think in terms of this is my pony bottle, this is my stage. It is just a small cylinder of gas. How I use it depends on the dive and what I want to accomplish. Words like pony (and the hubris that comes with it) are artificial constructs, nothing more. I get that these rules of thumb may keep new divers safe until they can gain experience to think for themselves but advanced divers should be able to think in terms of actual needs and not fake terms.

So, from a thinking divers POV, why can you not figure your pony bottle into your dive plan if the volume allows it. What deficiency in your skill prevents it. When you look at it like that you quickly see that such a rule is really a bandaid for lack of ability. Sure you tell the new diver not to do it, because they lack ability, but after a while one should be able to gain a working knowledge of needs and how to use sources to meet those needs.

If your plan is not to use your pony because it makes sense in real terms then it is a good plan. But if you cling to your pony as some sort of last gasp hail Mary container to save your a$$ then you have strayed pretty far from using skill to stay safe.

This isn't entirely true.

First, when diving with a buddy, what is the point of planning to use the extra gas if your buddy doesn't have enough gas for the same length of dive? If my sac rate is lower then my buddy's, and I have a steel 108 and they have an AL80, what good will the extra gas do me? None. If you want extra gas for a longer dive, why not just get a bigger tank and skip the pony bottle?

Using skill to stay safe? How do you use skill to avoid potential failures?

We are really talking semantics here. You use your extra gas to extend your dive and have enough if something goes wrong. I use mine to get my buddy and me back to the surface from 100ft comfortably. I don't use it for anything else because I carry enough back gas to complete my dive. Notice I say "my" dive. I know the type of diving I do and I can get two 1hour dives out of my steel 108 most of the time.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I've already answered these earlier, but here goes.

I don't donate my pony bottle because it is my "Get out of trouble free" gas. I bring it to avoid a catastrophic disaster.

I do have an alternative plan if my buddy goes OOA. It's exactly the same as someone that doesn't bring a pony bottle. I hand over my primary, switch to my Air2 and ascend.

And do you mean to tell me that if your buddy went OOA and you donated your pony bottle, that you would continue diving? I guess you could continue diving until your buddy sucked down the air in the pony bottle and THEN you can share air to the surface. But I am a little more conservative. I don't consider extending a dive by any amount time worth the potential risks.

I also normally dive an Air2 and a pony bottle and I have no octopus. So I too would donate from my mouth and would switch to my Air2 and begin an immediate ascent. If, during the ascent, I felt that the remaining gas in the main tank might be getting low, then I would switch to my pony in an attempt to preserve the remaining supply in the main tank.

However, here is where we may differ... I don't have such a hard and fast rule about my pony bottle. It is another resource and I would share it if the primary tank was sucked dry, but then we would have to buddy breath sharing one regulator. Something I would like to avoid in a true emergency if possible.

As I think about it now, if I saw the main tank getting too low too fast from a panicked victim, I might decide to put them on the pony and put me back on the primary tank if I thought my lower breathing rate might allow me to make the surface with the main tank, even though it is low.

Getting the reg out of the victim's mouth and switching on ascent might be a challenge, but sharing one reg with someone in trouble would really scare me.

Also with respect to Boulder John's comment about using the pony to extend the dive.. I've done this a few times, but I am solo and using a small pony which is back mounted and I have no way to know for sure if it is filled with air, since I have no gauge that I can read once I submerge. The inability to not really know what is in the back mounted tank is a disadvantage which could be a huge problem.

So let's say, I find a really nice lobster at 100 feet and my main tank is down to 400 lbs. I am pretty sure if I remain calm I can make it to the surface with 400, but if I stay for just a minute or so, it might not be such a sure thing with just 250 psi (in the main tank).. So this is what I would do when I am (admittedly being an idiot).. I will preserve the 400 in the main tank, switch to the pony, try to grab the bug and get the hell out in a minute or so and go back on the primary for the ascent.

If the pony is empty or very low - then it will run out - (and when a small pony runs out- there is little warning and little ability to milk the air out of it because it is so small). But should this occur, I really don't have a problem because I can just instantly switch to my primary (abandon the lobster) and begin the ascent (although I have expended my redundancy shield on the bottom for a freaking lobster). I have a very good confidence that the gauge is correct and I have 400 lbs and that none of it leaked out in the minute or so I used to do the stupid human trick with the pony.

This is not the recommended method to use a pony bottle, but it is better than the alternative... Which should be obvious, but I will state it anyway: If you stay down and suck the primary to zero PSI and then switch to the pony (with no gauge on it) and find that it is empty (or runs out in 15 seconds)... well now you have a real problem.. Something you REALLY want to avoid. If your are going to be an idiot, at least be smart about it.

So yeah, I guess I understand how Boulder John views the pony as a resource to be managed on a dive.

 

[Steve_C]

In terms of the diving I usually do. Say I have a sane but needing air diver. We are at 80-100 ft probably in the ocean. We go to the anchor line if it is close enough and assend it. Now we get close to the surface. Ideally we do a safety stop at the hangbar. Say it has gotten rough on top. We are going to have to go up and separate. Ideally the OOA can go to the boat with a reg in his mouth. Seems like for this last part it might be better to clip on the pony and let him go in and up with that while I go in on the air left in my tanks. [My pony is slung and clipped to BCD rings so easy to switch.]

Just thinking. My only two air shares have not involved surfacing at all and were resolved during the dive. [diver with temporary equipment issue and a DMguide "borrowing" some of my air]

 

[azmodan50]

I am pretty liberal with my general philosophy in life and diving and basically to each as own. But I admit that I just don't get this either. Gas is gas. Yes, during the dive the pony is your "catastrophic" go to plan. But, as you said yourself, once you donate (pony or secondary or primary) the dive is over. What possible castastropic event do you imagine on your ascent that only that reserved pony bottle will save the day?

Seriously curious.

I don't imagine any event on my ascent unless my panicked buddy is sucking air so hard that I go OOA. Which of course is very unlikely. But there is no need to unclip my pony and hand it over when the air on my back works just a good.

If I carried my pony bottle on my back, this wouldn't even be a question. So why should it be any different because I sling it? Me personally, I like to forget that it exists. Then , when it is really needed, I'm like "oh s%&t" I have extra gas.

It really is just a choice I've made. No different then carrying two lights on a night dive as far as I'm concerned. Or hiding a $20 bill in my wallet and forgetting it's there until I really need it.

---------- Post added May 21st, 2015 at 11:27 PM ----------

However, here is where we may differ... I don't have such a hard and fast rule about my pony bottle. It is another resource and I would share it if the primary tank was sucked dry, but then we would have to buddy breath sharing one regulator. Something I would like to avoid in a true emergency if possible.

See, but we are not different here. I would do the same thing which is why I don't include it in my dive plan. That's exactly why I carry it. In case my buddy goes OOA and my main is getting low, I have enough to get us both to the surface and do a safety stop.

I don't look down upon anyone that uses a pony to extend a dive. To each their own. I's just my preference to use it differently.