Meaningful metrics to justify claims that strategy X is better than strategy Y.

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kr2y5

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Over the couple of years I've been lurking here, I've enjoyed a lot of threads, in which various people expressed an opinion that one decompression strategy is believed to be better than or as good as another. The way I usually like to think about claims that "X is better than Y" is, to try to justify or reject them on the basis of some sort of measurement. I would ideally want to think of some metric of "badness", such as the "% of injuries among divers" (for some definition of "injuries" and some criteria of selecting divers) that we can use to determine, independently, how bad X and Y are. Upon finding that badness(X) < badness(Y), we would then feel more comfortable accepting the claim that X is better.

I wonder what sorts of metrics exist out there that are widely believed to be meaningful, and that could be used to compare different decompression strategies.

The various metrics I've heard about so far seem to fall onto a spectrum.

On one end, we have the "% injuries" sort of metrics. These are the most meaningful, since, well, they talk directly about injuries, which is what we all ultimately care about. From what I understand, they seem to suffer from a general scarcity of data. When findings based on such metrics are reported, people inevitably bring concerns that the size of the population may have been too small, or that not all important factors were controlled for, or that the dive profiles were not sufficiently representative, etc. My understanding is that in order to extrapolate anything statistically significant out of those studies at all, a lot of assumptions have to be made that are later inevitably called into question.

On the other end of the spectrum, we have purely synthetic sorts of metrics, such as % tissue saturation in some compartment or another, that are not even based on measurements of the diver's body. There is no shortage of data, but not surprisingly, some controversy over whether these metrics are even measuring anything we care about, and a lot of ambiguity (which tissue compartment is more important?).

In the various posts I've read on the topic, often the choice/design of the metric itself seems to be based on assumptions that different models do not necessarily agree on (like, the extent to which tissue saturation is a factor in predicting the risk of an injury). Sometimes, it sounds like one faction "proving" that the Christmas holidays are, of course, vastly superior to the Easter holidays, on the basis of the fact that they are in December.

In-between these extremes, there are apparently some metrics, like those based on Doppler measurements, that are based on some real, physical assessments of the diver, but where there is some controversy over whether the symptoms being measured have any real significance (in the sense that they are somehow correlated to the risk of an injury).

So, what other metrics are out there? What's the rationale behind choosing them? How much agreement exists that they're meaningful? What do the critics say? Thanks in advance for all replies.
 
Finding rational or metics......Good luck, thats all I can say. I do what I see fit for the type of diving I do and then experiment and apply common sense. I have seen guys skip large % of deco without issues. I have seen guys pad deco, dive conservative and get bent. You have to try and understand what works for you and that can only be achieved with experimentation. The thing with decompression is that so many different components can and will have a impact on the outcome.I hope you find what you are looking for.......Dive safe.
 
I think there are just too many variables... even when discussing a single theoretical model (i.e. Buhlmann w/ GF) let alone comparing different models.

How long has this model been utilized throughout history and how many people have dived or currently dive this model... and based on that what are the incident rates? what where the diving conditions? what were the physical characteristics of each diver who dove this model (body compositionn, physical fitness, dehydration, fatigue)? What were the various dive profiles? gases used?

How does this compare with other divers using other more recent models?.... and as a result with less divers/dives having used this model how can a direct comparison be made with an older model with the more limited data (less time "in the field")... and then added to that, all the other variables mentioned above.

So ultimately, I would probably be most influenced by the instruction that I have received... and from that point, with a better understanding of the model being utilized, experiment with various settings based on the dives being performed and try to glean some sort of empirical evidence that's relevant to my own specific set of variables. I might venture using another model once I get a better understanding of it and then do the same, but more than likely if the model I'm currently using gets me out of the water feeling good, then I won't mess with it - that's all that is relevant.
 
In the various posts I've read on the topic, often the choice/design of the metric itself seems to be based on assumptions that different models do not necessarily agree on (like, the extent to which tissue saturation is a factor in predicting the risk of an injury). Sometimes, it sounds like one faction "proving" that the Christmas holidays are, of course, vastly superior to the Easter holidays, on the basis of the fact that they are in December.

Interesting analogy, Christmas is always on the 25th December unless of course you are an Orthodox Christian and it's some other date, and who knows when Easter is year by year, you always have to go to a calendar and check it, plus it's different again for Orthodox Christians :D

Seriously though, we are all different and while the various tables / computer programmes attempt at making a one size fits all it will never be accurate enough unless there is some way to connect your tissue compartments gas saturation to the computer while you are diving. You never know it might happen in the next hundred years, but there might be somebody doing that right now with a bunch of goats and a hyperbaric chamber.
 
The only meaningful metric for deco is your own body. Even that approach does not make you immune to " any given day, any given dive " we are all likely to feel something sooner or later. The inherent problem with your body is that it ages, changes, and is rarely exactly the same dive to dive. There are no promised out comes for the big experiment.
YMMV
Eric
 
The most recent dust up regarding deco surrounded the Navy Experimental Diving Unit's tests of different profiles that seemed to suggest our former reliance on deep stops and the thought that "the bubble that forms deep will kill you" is completely misguided.

It was a real human test with some guys getting badly bent in the process.

Those are perhaps the best tests.....but the sample was small due to stoppage over safety concerns. Temperature issues were argued as a problem with that test etc etc etc. I think you can find the thread on rebreather world.

For now it seems there are too many moving parts to put our thumbs on amything.

The DAN data may also have a reporting bias, thay was discussed in that forum/ thread as well.

I think you could go to rebreather world and seach NEDU.
 
We all too often fit our "science" to our observation.When an outlier occurs we call it an anomaly instead of questioning our "science"
I follow my personal experience and those around me diving where,how,when,how long and doing what I do.And accept any risk for doing so.
 
There really aren't good metrics that I'm aware of. I think the soundest we probably have are those related to the original Bulhmann schedules, which sought to limit actual decompression sickness to a certain threshold. However, doubts have been raised about how truthful subjects (young and relatively fit U.S. Navy divers) were in reporting their symptoms, since they risked losing diving pay and being excluded from diving programs if they suffered hits.

Outside of that, we have the bubble scores from doppler readings, which any scientist will tell you have a weak correlation with DCS (a necessary but not sufficient condition).

Beyond the bubble scores we suffer from reporting bias to which there is no real solution. Any model, or piece of equipment for that matter, that purports to have had a certain number of incidences only, but which relies on voluntary user reporting, or subjective assessments, is fraught.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/
https://xf2.scubaboard.com/community/forums/cave-diving.45/

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