Teaching it Neutral Style... a paradigm shift in Scuba instruction

[tomfcrist]

That's bananas RJP

 

[Carl_F]

Since folks have "glommed" onto PADI in this discussion, how about the other Agencies?Which of the many, many, agencies demand as a Standard that all is taught neutrally buoyant. Beginner, recreational open water.Note that I mean it is in the Standards for the Agency. Not "my agency allows me to do what I want" stuff, but a Standard such that if the Instructor did not teach the students neutrally buoyant they would be in violation.

It's not for the agency I teach for but I was researching some additional techniques for Stress & Rescue and stumbled upon SNSI and their Rescue Diver videos show and reiterate doing skills neutrally buoyant (not necessarily in horizontal trim and without some arm motion ... but clearly neutrally buoyant.)To someone else's question on reg retrieval ... If teaching neutrally buoyant in trim, I'd still teach the sweep method of regulator retrieval. One still doesn't know where it went to if in the dark or limited vis so it still works well. It's probably even more effective while in trim.

 

[macado]

I was given a ZERO on one of my CW skills by the examiner during my IE... for frog kicking! "That's a highly technical skill which is inappropriate for an OW setting. What would happen if an OW student tried to kick like that?"

You get "0 points" in cases where there is either a standards violation or such a severe deficiency as to create a student safety issue. (If you get a ZERO on a skill you also fail the IE.) When I asked them to show me where in the manual it was stated that a frog kick was prohibited they decided to allow me to redo the skill... as long as I did it with a flutter kick.

Had a voicemail of apology from headquarters waiting for me on the following Monday morning.

That's sort of funny and sad. I didn't use any finning technique other than frogkicking during my IDC and IE and had no issues. My Course Director and Instructor Examiner never said a word to me.

Glad PADI headquarters sorted that out for you and I really hope what you experienced was not "the norm."

 

[The Chairman]

It just shows how confusing this all is for some. They see it as a bad thing and not as a benefit. It's going to take a lot of time to get everyone to see it as an alternative way to teach, much less actually teaching that way.

 

[boulderjohn]

It just shows how confusing this all is for some. They see it as a bad thing and not as a benefit. It's going to take a lot of time to get everyone to see it as an alternative way to teach, much less actually teaching that way.

In our discussions leading to the article, the PADI rep argued for teaching on the knees on the theory that it was easier and more comfortable for the students to learn the skills that way, after which they can transfer to a more dive-like posture. I argued that it was actually easier and more comfortable to learn the skills in a horizontal posture than on the knees. That seems counterintuitive, but it is true. I do not know this for sure, but I believe they gave it a try and thought, "Holy cow! It really is easier for the students this way!"

That is the revelation that instructors have when they switch--students are more comfortable and master the skills faster when they are not on the knees.

As an example of this, one of the newer instructors in our shop was taught by a Course Director to do at least dive #1 with the students not wearing fins, because it is so hard for them to kneel comfortably while wearing fins.

 

[CNYMAD]

Netdoc - thank you so much for teaching the remedial class! We took your class about a month ago, had done more than 100 recreational dives, had AOW - the instruction changed everything for me. I'm so much more comfortable and happy diving. If we had been taught this way from the start it would have been much better. Practiced with the new reel and SMB yesterday. Please keep encouraging your method, it will make a difference to many divers; new and old.

 

[ElGaucho]

I strongly believe it is easier to learn partially neutral (or neutral), referring to any position that embraces the inherent instability of being floating in mid water. The thing is, when you are "bolted" to the bottom, it is REALLY hard to be bolted. You end up floating away a bit. There is a lot of movement. We are tying to transfer a topside definition into the underwater world. This is impossible. You cannot stay bolted to the bottom underwater, even if you overweigh yourself drastically.

As an IDCer that came from Tech/Cave training, I had a LOUSY time being on my knees. I felt it was much more unstable than just being fairly neutral, fin tips, or perfectly neutral. You are fighting the ocean mate. It's retarded. If you allow people to be close to neutral (and I emphasize this because it is true not everybody can be perfectly neutral from the get go), then you must teach the student to not fight the water (and hence the sea), because it's futile

Basically, let the water move you around a bit, and you will see it doesn't move you very far. Most of the time ... it doesn't really. When you are "bolted", you feel off-balance all the time. It's absurd. That's why you see the infamous and terrible cool instructor one knee bent pose, which ends up being a bit more stable than the knees.

The horror.

 

[george_austin]

Haven't we had this discussion over and over again - particularly since PADI revised its OW course?

BTW, when Boulderjohn (with some help from the rest of the world!) wrote the article for PADI about teaching "neutral buoyancy style" [aka "An Early Introduction to Neutral Buoyancy"] Sam Miller was asked about the "on the knees" style of teaching. As I recall, the best he (and the rest of us) could come up with was that it derived from the teaching at Scripps -- wet suits (thus "over weighted" when on the bottom); sandy bottom; no such thing as a BCD.

It was the BCD that changed how we dove but the teaching framework was entrenched and didn't change with the "new" gear.

Training in Basic Scuba / OW for first time scuba prospects should be conducted for the entire course sans BCD. Emergency floatation device (Mae West) only?
That will cure the buoyancy / overweighting issue real quick - for instructors too. But can you imagine the squaking from the manufacturers and the lawyers? - delicious, but we'd be creating a whole new class of divers after about 3 or 4 years

 

[Neilwood]

Training in Basic Scuba / OW for first time scuba prospects should be conducted for the entire course sans BCD. Emergency floatation device (Mae West) only?
That will cure the buoyancy / overweighting issue real quick - for instructors too. But can you imagine the squaking from the manufacturers and the lawyers? - delicious, but we'd be creating a whole new class of divers after about 3 or 4 years

Would also put a lot of people off from learning SCUBA - the added hassle/effort of only using breath to maintain depth and trim would mean most folk would give up

 

[The Chairman]

Training in Basic Scuba / OW for first time scuba prospects should be conducted for the entire course sans BCD.

All Scuba training should be done in the gear they will be expected to be using after the class. It's a matter of comfort through control, and that will enable more people to want to continue diving after the class.