running out of air

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So look at where we are.

Top level instructors seething at what is being discussed in “Basic Scuba Discussions” yet the TOS remains unbroken.

Devil’s advocate: I dive a 50 cuft tank for my singles rig. I follow all the rules: (:wink:)

1) Don’t over-dive your tank. That gives me a 50’ max.
2) Have 500 psi at the surface. No prob, I plan my gas for every dive.

So who wants to accompany me as a buddy on a 50’ dive where I will just return with 500 psi?
I wouldn’t do that dive myself. (rockbottom/min gas)

Eric: Most valuable insights! I’ve swapped roles for my G250V and my R190 on my singles rig. Freaking can’t believe that I got this from “Basics”.

My point to the powers that be:

Relaxing the SB visibility restrictions on both solo and minimum acceptable practices comes with a truckload of unintended consequences.

Bottom Line as it should have been:

You are in “Basic Scuba Discussions”. You don’t run out of air. Period.
 
Nope. Just one trick in the Basics Bag. Go for your buddy who is probably 300 yards away or flare and OOA ascend.

You risk confusing people with information that isn't being taught at this level.
 
I find it interesting that instructors (who know better) appear to be forced to defend a position that is refuted by physical reality. We are talking about a few breaths, here.

So look at where we are.

Top level instructors seething at what is being discussed in “Basic Scuba Discussions” yet the TOS remains unbroken.

...
My point to the powers that be:

Relaxing the SB visibility restrictions on both solo and minimum acceptable practices comes with a truckload of unintended consequences.

Bottom Line as it should have been:

You are in “Basic Scuba Discussions”. You don’t run out of air. Period.
These posts led me to go through the entire thread to try to find what you are talking about. I am lost.

Where did you see " instructors (who know better) appear to be forced to defend a position that is refuted by physical reality"?

Where did you see "Top level instructors seething at what is being discussed in 'Basic Scuba Discussions'"?

Since I am supposedly one of the "powers that be" to whom you are addressing your last point and haven't a single clue what you are talking about, I am unable to do about it.
 
So, to answer the OP's original question:

What are indications that a tank is getting low, other than the gauge, when you are underwater or do you take that last breath and that's it?

Dumpsterdiver touched on one indicator and that is a limp SPG hose. On your next dive note the stiffness of the high pressure hose and the amount of effort required to twist the SPG as the tank pressure changes. You should notice a marked difference between full and 500 psi.

It is not a reliable way to judge your tank pressure of course but it is the only other indicator of low pressure I can think of when the system includes a balanced first stage.
 
These posts led me to go through the entire thread to try to find what you are talking about. I am lost.
Apologies.

The central theme of my complaint is best seen by my continual attempts (as a community member) at keeping Basic Scuba Discussions focused on the new diver’s point of view. At this level, the diver needs chapter and verse to keep him/her safe in their own mind. Something solid to hold on to that keeps panic at bay. Breathing underwater is unnatural. They need dogma to hold onto: If I always do this and do it correctly as I was taught, I won’t get hurt.

Truer awareness comes later.
Where did you see "instructors (who know better) appear to be forced to defend a position that is refuted by physical reality"?
Denying that the last few breaths off an empty cylinder are compromised?
Where did you see "Top level instructors seething at what is being discussed in 'Basic Scuba Discussions'"?
We were having an ongoing discussion (that, by my own admission) didn’t belong in Basic. NWGD posted and in short order there were many posts all “liked” by Doppler that refuted the entire idea of being aware of the last few breaths. The posts all came in with his muscle but Doppler did not offer his direct opinion. Nor do I need it, I know what it is. I've taken a couple of his courses.

The tone of each post was clear. Seething still appears to be an appropriate term to me. OK, how about “disparaging”?
Since I am supposedly one of the "powers that be" to whom you are addressing your last point and haven't a single clue what you are talking about…
“The Powers That Be” is not necessarily an aspersion.

You are, indeed, one of those who has power to influence the content of Basic Scuba Discussions. Imagine that you could ask Marcia her views of this. I’m sure that you would have no difficulty in forecasting what her response would be. It would be all about the concerns and uncertainties of being a new diver and none of the more advanced ideas. There is no way to transmit this idea without actually showing how inappropriate it is to over-inform new divers. This is exactly where I went, dancing on the line, over-informing just to make my point.

My entire effort was intended to highlight a single non-dogmatic and highly advanced thought for the newbie: somehow be able to determine how your gear is performing. This is a huge thought for a newbie. Most have no idea. The idea of being able to monitor one’s gear’s performance is quite enough at this level. It does, however, plant the seeds of doubt.

In my opinion, “you” are all suffering from normalization creep. You all know everything and the threat is that you begin to presuppose that new divers understand more than they actually do. Please keep and protect the point of view of the rank newbie in this forum. Solo and the finer points of going OOA have no place here.

I hope this helps to explain my concerns.
 
I hope this helps to explain my concerns.
It seems to me that you are working very hard to support a position by misrepresenting that support. In your response, you gave your interpretations of what others wrote as proof of your interpretations of what they wrote. Let's look at one portion of what your wrote:

Denying that the last few breaths off an empty cylinder are compromised?

We were having an ongoing discussion (that, by my own admission) didn’t belong in Basic. NWGD posted and in short order there were many posts all “liked” by Doppler that refuted the entire idea of being aware of the last few breaths. The posts all came in with his muscle but Doppler did not offer his direct opinion. Nor do I need it, I know what it is. I've taken a couple of his courses.

The tone of each post was clear. Seething still appears to be an appropriate term to me. OK, how about “disparaging”?

Here is what NWGratefulDiver wrote:
Not everyone teaches that way ... I train my students to consider, before they ever get in the water, how much air they'll need for the dive they're planning to do. If they have even a rough idea, then the chances of running out of air are significantly reduced because they've made bringing adequate gas a part of their dive plan.

NWGratefulDiver.com

As in many aspects of diving, being proactive will generally produce better results than being reactive ...
Doppler liked that post, and he also liked one from Flots Am that did deny that there would be any effect in the last breaths. That's it. Is that seething?

Now let's look at what you say is your central theme and ScubaBoard's management of the Basic Scuba section:

The central theme of my complaint is best seen by my continual attempts (as a community member) at keeping Basic Scuba Discussions focused on the new diver’s point of view. At this level, the diver needs chapter and verse to keep him/her safe in their own mind. Something solid to hold on to that keeps panic at bay. Breathing underwater is unnatural. They need dogma to hold onto: If I always do this and do it correctly as I was taught, I won’t get hurt.
...

“The Powers That Be” is not necessarily an aspersion.

You are, indeed, one of those who has power to influence the content of Basic Scuba Discussions. Imagine that you could ask Marcia her views of this. I’m sure that you would have no difficulty in forecasting what her response would be. It would be all about the concerns and uncertainties of being a new diver and none of the more advanced ideas. There is no way to transmit this idea without actually showing how inappropriate it is to over-inform new divers. This is exactly where I went, dancing on the line, over-informing just to make my point.

My entire effort was intended to highlight a single non-dogmatic and highly advanced thought for the newbie: somehow be able to determine how your gear is performing. This is a huge thought for a newbie. Most have no idea. The idea of being able to monitor one’s gear’s performance is quite enough at this level. It does, however, plant the seeds of doubt.

In my opinion, “you” are all suffering from normalization creep. You all know everything and the threat is that you begin to presuppose that new divers understand more than they actually do. Please keep and protect the point of view of the rank newbie in this forum. Solo and the finer points of going OOA have no place here.

First of all, I am pretty darn confident I know what Marcia would say. She and I collaborated long and hard on the precise wording of an article on teaching beginning scuba classes. I still have all her emails and edits on the subject. I find it really strange that you invoke the support of someone who never said anything on the topic.

Next, the topic of the thread is what it feels like when a tank runs out of air. That question is part of the PADI OW course, and has been for decades--possibly from the very beginning. As was stated several times during the thread, students go through an air depletion drill twice in the confined water section of the class, and after the second one they are supposed to initiate an air sharing exercise with a buddy. The purpose of the exercise is to let the students know what it feels like to be running out of air so that they are ready to go to their buddy for help. Now, some have argued this is not really accurate because shutting the air off in a pool does not feel like running out of air at a greater depth. I agree, and I tell my students that.

Is it your position that a concept that is part of what a student is taught during OW certification is too advanced for Basic Scuba? Are you saying that this should be removed from the OW curriculum because it is too difficult?
 
Apologies.

The central theme of my complaint is best seen by my continual attempts (as a community member) at keeping Basic Scuba Discussions focused on the new diver’s point of view. At this level, the diver needs chapter and verse to keep him/her safe in their own mind. Something solid to hold on to that keeps panic at bay. Breathing underwater is unnatural. They need dogma to hold onto: If I always do this and do it correctly as I was taught, I won’t get hurt.

Truer awareness comes later.

I disagree with your premise ... the New Divers forum is for keeping focused on the new diver's point of view. Basic diving means exactly that ... diving within the limits of what's typically taught at the recreational level. It should not, however, be limited to what it taught at the OW level, as you imply ... OW reduces much about diving to the least common denominator and provides a handful of easy-to-remember slogans and rules of thumb. They are meant as a starting point ... a floor, not a ceiling for basic recreational diving.

There is a GREAT DEAL that is not covered in OW classes that can easily be construed as "Basic Diving" ... it is not taught in OW class due to time and mental bandwidth constraints ... and in large part because a diver needs to have a point of context to move beyond the rote and begin to develop an understanding of its meaning. Routine gas management isn't, by any stretch, "advanced diving" ... it applies equally every time a diver's head goes below the surface.

I'll say this as someone with nearly 12 years of teaching experience ... classes are an artificial environment. They don't "teach" you skills so much as they teach you how to learn them. Learning comes ... as it does with most things ... from regular practice and application. Because with those things one develops an understanding of what was introduced in the class, and provides a context in which learning becomes possible. Classes provide a well-defined structure that leaves out many things ... on the assumption that those things can be developed and refined through practical application. And for the newer diver, that application occurs at the basic diving level ... or should.

That's why, for the past few years, I've preferred workshops over classes ... they're less structured, more personal, and far more focused on individual needs rather than a predefined curriculum that may or may not include the things the individual most needs to learn. It's why mentors are so important ... and always have been for helping new divers develop their skill set.

You remind me in many ways of the opposition I got when I first wrote that gas management article and started promoting it through social media and live seminars ... many of the established scuba educators poo-poo'ed it as "tech sh!t" and argued that it wasn't needed at the "basic" level. And to a point I agree with them ... the math isn't needed, except as a tool to help those so inclined to comprehend why it matters. But the concepts most certainly do. Over the years I've offered that seminar at all levels ... even to people who had yet to complete their OW class ... and I've yet to find anyone who is incapable of comprehending the basic premise, which is that the very best way to not run out of air is to "plan your dive and dive your plan" ... one of those slogans so popular in OW classes ... and that dive planning includes making sure you begin the dive with adequate air to do the dive you've planned. It makes sense at a very basic level ... and yet until recently it was not a part of any agency's entry level curriculum. But I'm starting to see these folks coming around to thinking that maybe it is a good idea after all.

The "basic" way ... telling people to "end the dive with 500 psi" ... is fine. But it lacks telling them how to do it. And as such it describes a goal without any attempt to instruct the new diver how to achieve it.

There are many such gaps in basic education. It was never intended to be comprehensive ... it was intended only to provide a framework that allows the gaps to be filled in through additional advice, practice, and contextual understanding. That's what this conversation attempts to do. In no way should anything said in here be construed as "advanced" ... people run out of air on "basic" dives far too frequently, even though it's nearly 100% avoidable. Why would you ever think they should wait till they're doing "advanced" diving to learn how to not do that?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
It seems to me that you are working very hard to support a position by misrepresenting that support. In your response, you gave your interpretations of what others wrote as proof of your interpretations of what they wrote.
Yes, I overplayed my hand in an attempt to make a point that I’m a bit passionate about. If I misrepresented anyone for support, they have my apologies. Inexcusable.
Doppler liked that post, and he also liked one from Flots Am that did deny that there would be any effect in the last breaths. That's it. Is that seething?
No, Doppler and I don’t get along very well, most likely my fault. I “got” his likes. Again, I overstated my case.
Now let's look at what you say is your central theme and ScubaBoard's management of the Basic Scuba section:

...//...

First of all, I am pretty darn confident I know what Marcia would say. She and I collaborated long and hard on the precise wording of an article on teaching beginning scuba classes.
I’m aware of that, Marcia and I corresponded daily.
I still have all her emails and edits on the subject. I find it really strange that you invoke the support of someone who never said anything on the topic.
I don’t speak for her, but both of us know her deep feelings toward newbies.
Next, the topic of the thread is what it feels like when a tank runs out of air. …//… Now, some have argued this is not really accurate because shutting the air off in a pool does not feel like running out of air at a greater depth. I agree, and I tell my students that.
Fine, but telling isn’t experiencing. However, it should never happen. So it isn’t a big deal either.
Is it your position that a concept that is part of what a student is taught during OW certification is too advanced for Basic Scuba? Are you saying that this should be removed from the OW curriculum because it is too difficult?
No. I was responding to what I see as too much information being added to the Basic Scuba Discussions forum. I have nothing at all to do with formal scuba instruction and never will. Now you are overstating your case.

I need to spend much less time at the keyboard and get back to what really counts. I appreciate the time you took on this.

As you were…
 
A few thoughts.

If anyone's posts are over the top in this thread then I am clearly among the guilty. But I don't recall anyone discussing an out of air situation from negligence but rather as an intentional learning experience or equipment mishap. If otherwise, I missed it and I apologize. Should anyone need to know how a tank feels just before it goes out of air? No, they should never need to be able to recognize it. But clearly it does happen, hence this thread.

And I don't think discussing the possibility condones poor gas management. No more so then silence on the subject would prevent it from happening. Rather, it is just another point of education. Another tidbit of info in the mental dive kit.

But should it be in basic? I think so. For the same reason that buddy breathing is part of basic. Why would one discuss approprite response to OOA and not the recognition?
 
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