Negative buoyancy, learning to swim?

[TMHeimer]

dmaziuk, You're a swimmer and I'm not really, so your advice for sprint swimming may be the best advice for the OP. I've been away from it for so long---what distance would you consider "sprint" and what long distance?

On buoyancy-- I was very slim age 15 when I was on the team and don't recall back then thinking about what % of my energy was going to keeping me afloat and what was going to forward progress. And of course I agree that being slim then I had way ... WAY less drag than I do now. I would still think my theory of body buoyancy would hold true either way, no? A slim person who is very negative would have to spend a bigger % of energy to keep afloat than a positive one of exactly the same slimness, no? Same for 2 equally heavy people with different buoyancies?

 

[spc751]

Find a Total Immersion swim coach and take a few lessons. It will change your life.

Total Immersion: How I Learned to Swim Effortlessly in 10 Days and You Can Too | The Blog of Author Tim Ferriss

 

[seeker242]

The good news is that the fact that you sink is really a compliment. It means you probably don't have a lot of adipose tissue.

I don't know. The OP said he is 5'11" at 240 Lbs. And he "should" probably should lose 60-80 lbs. He admits to not being a bodybuilder guy. He said fat doesn't help him float. No offense to the OP!

 

[Seymour Fisch]

Coming back to Javik's original question, let me take a slightly different position, as a new diver, and a crappy swimmer...

I think Javik was confounding three different things: natural buoyancy, swimming ability, and learning scuba diving. You all have done a great job of showing that a lot of people are naturally negative (or much less positive than average), and it's possible to be naturally negatively buoyant and still a great swimmer. There were also some off-hand comments, from strong swimmers, about how they couldn't imagine why anyone who wasn't a good swimmer would consider learning scuba.

Well, I'm one of those people. All my life I've been a weak swimmer. As a kid, I couldn't pass some low-level swim class ("minnows" or "guppies" or "sea urchins" or some such), because I couldn't back float, no matter how hard I tried (big breath, arched back, etc.). In college, I started over with beginning swimming classes, which went well until I got to "intermediate" with the varsity swim coach, who just yelled at us to swim laps, and I couldn't keep up. In OW (for Javik, that's the introductory scuba course), things that others complain about (mask clearing, reg swapping) were easy -- my biggest challenge was flailing through 200m of breaststroke to pass the swim test. If you give me a wetsuit, mask, snorkel, and fins, in reasonably calm water, I feel great; and if you toss me in the deep end of a swimming pool, I won't drown; but still, if you asked me to swim 400m without any aids, I'm not sure if I could do it.

But... I got my scuba certification, and I LOVE it! With scuba, I can finally be relaxed in the water the way I always wanted, but was never able to before. I can breathe whenever I want. I'm neutrally buoyant. (For Javik: on scuba, you have a buoyancy compensator, to which you can add or remove air, to adjust your buoyancy.) I've dived with sharks, watched gigantic manta rays dancing graceful pas de deux, speared lionfish from a tiny islet in Belize. Even though I'm still a crappy swimmer.

I know I'll never be half as good a diver as most of you, and compared to a lot of you, I probably really am a "crummy diver". But I've never crashed into a reef, and I get a lot of compliments on my trim. And on the last few boats I was on (typical vacation destinations), I'm starting to find myself one of the more "with it" divers. (BTW, a lot of my progress is thanks to all the helpful comments from you all here on Scubaboard ).

So, for Javik, or anyone else feeling similarly, I'd say: if you are comfortable enough not to freak out in the water, and you can pass the swim test, and you always wanted to try scuba, go for it!

(BTW, I'd love to become a better swimmer, and I've been carefully noting all the swim advice here. I'm certainly not discouraging anyone from learning to swim better. But I don't think you need to be a former competitive swimmer to become a safe and competent enough diver to enjoy a lot of fantastic diving (in benign conditions).)

 

[TMHeimer]

Seymour Fisch, I think we agree and disagree. I don't think anyone who posted (well, at least not me for sure) think that (proper) swimming is anything more than a distant cousin to scuba. Mechanics, objectives, etc. differ widely. One is a sport due to the possible competitiveness, the other a nice activity. I would agree with you completely that there are probably an uncountable number of excellent divers who swim poorly. I have posted for years about the purposes of various "swim" tests for scuba classes and found a myriad of opinions. I would agree with Boulderjohn's post a while back that the 300 meter mask/fin/snorkel swim is a much better idea to begin a scuba course since it addresses finning--WITH FINS--and airway control--with snorkel, not nose breathing as well. In fact, one may think a bit of snorkeling would be advisable before signing up for scuba. However, the 300 test has nothing to do with swimming. In my imaginary ideal world there would be no straight "swim" tests for scuba as everyone who signed up would know how to swim. In saying someone who can't properly swim is crazy in signing up for scuba, I would also say anyone whoever has been on a fishing boat, walked on or fished from a jetty into deep water, been in water at or near chest level or deeper, been in water anywhere near a current--may also be crazy if they can't properly swim. If you do any of these things, swimming is a life skill, and only remotely related to scuba.

 

[Lorenzoid]

The OP mentioned that he's used the YMCA pool, so I would imagine the YMCA would be a great place to ask around for a swim instructor/coach. But there are, of course, other options. Seriously, in the time we have spent writing endless advice on this thread and the time you (OP) will spend reading it, you could have signed up for a few swim lessons and be on your way to getting this whole so-called watermanship thing down pat.

Red Cross, Total Immersion, etc., etc. The important thing is to find an instructor/coach who can get in the pool with you and show you. These people exist. You just need to ask around.

Hi. I used to be a a Red Cross swimming instructor (WSI, Lifeguard, etc. although to be fair I'm ~ 10 years out of currency) and I agree that floating is quite hard. . . .

Find a Total Immersion swim coach and take a few lessons. It will change your life.

Total Immersion: How I Learned to Swim Effortlessly in 10 Days and You Can Too | The Blog of Author Tim Ferriss

Watermanship, which I would loosely define as being comfortable and effective in the water without your scuba gear, is not NECESSARY for scuba, but I think it helps. Since as far as I know every certification agency includes a swim test of one sort or another as part of their requirements for certification, they seem to think so as well. You yourself seem to recognize it in your original post, where you speak about swimming and buoyancy together. Maybe it's useful to get a feel for one's inherent buoyancy and how swimming affects your position in the water. Or something like that. I can't precisely articulate why, but I think good watermanship skills are helpful to being a good, confident diver. I can only speak from experience and say that learning to swim properly has made me more confident.

Coming back to Javik's original question, let me take a slightly different position, as a new diver, and a crappy swimmer...

I think Javik was confounding three different things: natural buoyancy, swimming ability, and learning scuba diving. You all have done a great job of showing that a lot of people are naturally negative (or much less positive than average), and it's possible to be naturally negatively buoyant and still a great swimmer. There were also some off-hand comments, from strong swimmers, about how they couldn't imagine why anyone who wasn't a good swimmer would consider learning scuba.
. . .
So, for Javik, or anyone else feeling similarly, I'd say: if you are comfortable enough not to freak out in the water, and you can pass the swim test, and you always wanted to try scuba, go for it!

So, as you might surmise, I am not in total agreement with Seymour Fisch. You CAN pass the basic Open Water course and get the OW certification even if you are only a mediocre swimmer who can flail his way across the pool. But I believe learning to swim in the traditional manner CAN help one become that much more confident and safe as a diver. You may not NEED to learn to swim properly now, but in hindsight I wish I had done it before my original OW course and not waited until I was facing more advanced training. I don't think you will regret it if you get some lessons.

 

[dmaziuk]

what distance would you consider "sprint" and what long distance?

Your brother's 2 nautical miles are certainly long distance. As for sprint, at my current fitness level: 50 yards -- I can do "there and back" before I start running out of breath.

A slim person who is very negative would have to spend a bigger % of energy to keep afloat than a positive one of exactly the same slimness, no? Same for 2 equally heavy people with different buoyancies?

Well, without an adamantium endoskeleton the biggest contributor to the buoyancy is the lungs -- even a thick layer of bioprene is something a lot of people on this board can compensate for with just the lungs. So basically two people of similar shape and size should not have buoyancies so different it would significantly affect them the way you say. It's more likely that the one who can't swim would spend more energy to keep afloat simply because they'll be pushing their head above water: that turns it into dead weight, messes up your trim so the entire front of your body becomes a drag surface, and so on and so forth.

---------- Post added October 30th, 2015 at 10:37 AM ----------

As a kid ... I couldn't back float, no matter how hard I tried (big breath, arched back, etc.).

Back floating is actually hard and don't believe anyone who tells you otherwise. It takes a lot of practice and even then all it takes is a very slight movement to push you out of balance and flip you head up.

 

[danvolker]

The important skill in swimming for a diver, is not how fast they can swim in 50 meters...it is how comfortable they would be in the water if they had to swim for an hour or more....how efficient and effortless they could do this...

This gets to tbe idea of how relaxed and natural a person can feel in the water...and this suggests how well they can learn diving skills.

That is the biggest issue for learning scuba.

Of lesser importance....some people will naturally pick up swimming as if they always knew how....people like this will often pick up diving skills much faster than average, also.

 

[archer1960]

The important skill in swimming for a diver, is not how fast they can swim in 50 meters...it is how comfortable they would be in the water if they had to swim for an hour or more....how efficient and effortless they could do this...

This gets to tbe idea of how relaxed and natural a person can feel in the water...and this suggests how well they can learn diving skills.

That is the biggest issue for learning scuba.

Of lesser importance....some people will naturally pick up swimming as if they always knew how....people like this will often pick up diving skills much faster than average, also.

If I had to swim for an hour or more, I'd be doing either an elementary back stroke or a side stroke. I find the crawl and breast strokes quite tiring.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Another thought to add--and I have no idea why this thread interests me so much because believe it or not I really don't like swimming--but I wonder if learning to do something in the water for which one does not have a natural affinity--indeed, a bit of an aversion in my case--is in itself a help in learning how to learn to be a good scuba diver. Huh? What I mean is that before I finally took it upon myself to learn to swim properly, although I was fairly comfortable in the water in general and very comfortable while scuba diving, it was after learning to swim laps using reasonably proper form that I felt I could conquer anything I had to learn to do in the water.