C Cards Requirement or Recommendation?

[John A Lewis]

Please let me put this out there.

It's been said that there's no Scuba Police. It's an oft-said canard over the years. Hell, I've even said it myself in classes!

Came to realize that it isn't true--there are Scuba Police, and we deal with them daily without realizing it. We deal with them, follow their dictums and never let out a peep because of their power over us. The reason we say there are no Scuba Police is because they don't go by that name.

We call them insurance companies.

How many here ask to see C-cards because their insurance requires it? Nitrox card, same reason? Require a demonstration of a minimal training lever because of a clause in coverage forces them to?

We often claim that we are self-regulating, but is that really true? Aren't we, in fact, regulated by insurance carrier requirements?

By lawsuit fears?

 

[phoenix31tt]

If you have your own boat and your own compressor, all the more power to you, I would imagine this does not apply the vast majority of divers

regardless... what that means is... there are no scuba police. As netdoc hinted, everybody is quick to sue a shop if an accident happens so the shops must cover themselves as much as possible. Locally our shops require cards to go diving but they do not require AOW for diving below 60' or drift diving or any other "Advanced" dive. The shop makes the call on if they would take you to those sites based on what they see on your first dive with them.

 

[boulderjohn]

I enjoy a very minor celebrity status compared to him, but it can open doors and allow me to bypass a few rules.

Well, of course, if people know who you are and know you have "very minor celebrity status" in the scuba industry, they are going to assume you have the certifications you need and will not ask for them. I have close to no celebrity status whatsoever, and I rarely get asked for a card. That's because I do almost all of my diving in places I have been before, and people know me by name on sight. On some recent occasions I have been doing my diving with someone who works for the shop in question--again an accurate assumption was made. When I walk into a new location with people who don't know me from Adam, I am always asked for an appropriate card.

---------- Post added December 14th, 2015 at 09:56 AM ----------

I enjoy a very minor celebrity status compared to him, but it can open doors and allow me to bypass a few rules.

Well, of course, if people know who you are and know you have "very minor celebrity status" in the scuba industry, they are going to assume you have the certifications you need and will not ask for them. I have close to no celebrity status whatsoever, and I rarely get asked for a card. That's because I do almost all of my diving in places I have been before, and people know me by name on sight. On some recent occasions I have been doing my diving with someone who works for the shop in question--again an accurate assumption was made. When I walk into a new location with people who don't know me from Adam, I am always asked for an appropriate card.

 

[archer1960]

A C card is a requirement to get fills or dive if you are using a commercial operator that doesn't want to be sued. Same for nitrox.
Nobody can stop anybody from diving from their own vessel, or filling their own tanks without a card. There are no laws preventing it.

A card isn't even required to get fills at some shops (mine for one), only to rent THEIR tanks. They DO require a card before you can dive with them on a shop-organized dive, or rent their other equipment.

 

[tomfcrist]

If you have your own boat and your own compressor, all the more power to you, I would imagine this does not apply the vast majority of divers

Maybe so, but a recreational Hookah rig is fairly inexpensive and encompasses the same dangers as traditional SCUBA.....possibly more dangerous than traditional scuba.

---------- Post added December 14th, 2015 at 12:09 PM ----------

A card isn't even required to get fills at some shops (mine for one), only to rent THEIR tanks. They DO require a card before you can dive with them on a shop-organized dive, or rent their other equipment.

Very true, especially since modern paintball enthusiasts use pressure vessels originally designed for scuba (scuba cylinders)to fill their paintball tanks.

 

[chrisch]

....How many here ask to see C-cards because their insurance requires it? Nitrox card, same reason? Require a demonstration of a minimal training lever because of a clause in coverage forces them to?

We often claim that we are self-regulating, but is that really true? Aren't we, in fact, regulated by insurance carrier requirements?...

Insurance is only an issue if you are in a position where you need insurance. For example a dive boat will not let you dive because you do not meet their insurance requirement. If diving off the shore on your own (for example) you need neither insurance nor certification. But I agree it is likely to be the most limiting factor.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Well, of course, if people know who you are and know you have "very minor celebrity status" in the scuba industry, they are going to assume you have the certifications you need and will not ask for them. I have close to no celebrity status whatsoever, and I rarely get asked for a card. That's because I do almost all of my diving in places I have been before, and people know me by name on sight. On some recent occasions I have been doing my diving with someone who works for the shop in question--again an accurate assumption was made. When I walk into a new location with people who don't know me from Adam, I am always asked for an appropriate card.

... then there's the question of what constitutes an appropriate card ...

I've told the story before of the dive op in Maui who would not accept my YMCA or NAUI c-cards ... the only "appropriate card" for his dive op had the initials "PADI" on it, and despite the fact that I have a drawer full of c-cards, none of them say PADI. I ended up diving with someone else.

Then there was the guy in Bonaire who insisted I didn't have the proper certification to dive nitrox, because I handed him a Trimix card. I finally had to say "OK, give me trimix then ... just don't put any helium in it".

On the other side of that spectrum is the time my dive buddy lost her c-cards enroute to Raja Ampat. The dive op manager offered to take her for a checkout dive on the house reef, assuring her that "I'll be able to tell whether you're certified". She eventually found the cards ... after we got home and she was unpacking. But she didn't miss a dive the whole time we were there ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Rhone Man]

I suspect the purpose of this thread is to have an argument rather than a discussion, but for what it is worth, my experience has been highly variable country by country. Plenty of places in the world demand cards. Plenty of places don't care.

For example, when I was in South Africa the diving that I did was done in loose clubs rather than with commercial shops. Some of that diving was pretty challenging, but if you wanted to dive and covered your share of the costs, nobody asked you any questions. People were expected to make their own decisions if their skills were good enough. Not holding that up as a model, just pointing out that not everywhere in the world is the same.

 

[rivers]

A majority of my diving has been in the UK. I have never once been asked for a certification card while diving here, whether off of a boat or at an inland site. My boat dives have ranged from 12m bimbles in a harbour to 45m trimix/deco dives. Standard practice is to get on the boat, sign in with your name, emergency contact info, planned dive time, and sometimes gas mixes and then set up your kit as you motor out to the dive site. If it's a club dive, you might have a bit of club paperwork to fill out as well. If you sign up for a particular boat dive, it is accepted by the skipper you have the knowledge, skills, and experience to be on that dive, as well as being dived up enough for it.
I've never once been asked for a nitrox card either in the UK.
Abroad, I've been asked for my c-card in most places in the Caribbean as well as Australia and Vanuatu. Not in Fiji though. In Croatia, they ask for your card, and either take a photo copy of it, or if a small enough group, the captain holds on to it. That is mostly to cover their asses in case they get stopped by the maritime police.

 

[ScubaForScience]

I see them as being rooted in liability. If a dive operator is willing to take the liability of letting someone dive without a cert card, dive outside their cert limits, fill tanks that they don't show a cert for, that's up to them. Some are very loosy goosy with that decision, some make it based on who they know, some decide based on how much money they will lose if they don't serve you as a diver, and then others stick to the letter of the law to cover their own butts. This is why cert card "requirements" vary so widely from country to country, state to state, and even dive shop to dive shop.

I don't own a dive operation but if I did, I would probably be very strict about needing to see a card. It wouldn't be to be a jerk or to stop people from diving but there is one enormous benefit, one added bonus, and one under-appreciated benefit that I see on the business side of being strict:
1) First and foremost, it protects me from liability. When an open water diver has a fatal heart attack underwater and happens to be at 70ft when it happens, his family will try to sue me for everything I'm worth. My career would risk being over and I would risk bankruptcy. It would be up to the judge to decide but I can protect myself against their lawyers by not allowing him to dive beyond what he has proven to me that he is certified to do.
2) Less important than that, it allows me to sell more courses. "Hey man, you're an open water diver and we have some awesome sites below 60ft. I can help get you there by doing and advanced course for you. Oh, you want to go deeper still? How about my decompression class!" Some people take this way too far and I disagree with their tactics but done right, this mentality can increase business.
3) As a customer, I look for dive operators that have a reputation for following standards. Being asked and seeing others asked for cards is one of those ways that the operator is actively and visibly following standards making me more likely to recommend them to friends.

There are a lot of shortcomings to the certification card system, there is no doubt about it. However, in a world where we can fabricate dive logs, lie about experience, and embellish how good we are, the certification card is a way that dive operators can protect themselves.
At the end of the day, it's their prerogative to either take the liability by letting you dive or to protect themselves by not allowing you outside of what you can prove your certified for. After all, in Florida all you need to legally dive is a dive flag. You can have all of your own gear and dive all you want but the certification card issue only comes up when you go to dive with a shop or have your tanks filled.