Diver drowns in guided cenote dive

[boulderjohn]

We're told it's good to gradually increase our personal limits, yet we're also told there is a line somewhere not to be crossed without additional training and equipment.

Yes--several lines, actually. I did try to do it in the course. I talk about the key factors to look for in evaluating whether the proposed site is right for you. Is it good enough? Well, we can get together some day, you can take the course, and you can report your reaction.

 

[The Chairman]

Yeah, I think you're being unreasonable

Then I'm out. I don't understand someone bitching about taking stuff out of context and then doing the same thing. Y'all have fun. I'm unsubscribing here.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

One of the factors in this accident was the diver "straying" away from the guide, as I read from the article. We have talked about enabling and reinforcing factors, such as the alure of the spring's cave, but we have not specifically talked about preventing this "straying" of a diver from the guided group. We did talk about having two guides, one doing "clean-up" in the rear, but that probably won't happen due to economics.

I have been using a device called the SeawiscopeEY (for Seawiscope Ever Young), and a few years back met its inventor, C.Y. Tang in Hong Kong on one of my family trips there. CY gave me one to use, and we have had dialog as I have been promoting this device rather than prescription lenses in masks. You can see this device in my avitar, attached to my mask. It flips up when not in use, and I have been using it for aquatic life observation for some four or five years now. It is a regular part of my diving equipment.

Well, I recently found out that CY Tang has developed a "rear-view mirror" for masks, which would work much like the helmet mirrors or eyeglass mirrors I use when bicycling. He developed it so that Tech Divers could better monitor their equipment. I am wondering whether such a device would help these tour guides monitor the divers that they take into these cenotes? Any thoughts?

SeaRat

 

[John C. Ratliff]

My NAUI Professional Resource Organizer, from 1977, states this about caves:

Caves
Cave systems are often found in conjunction with springs. Subterranean waters are strictly for expert divers, specially trained in their hazards. NO One, basic diver or instructor, should consider wave diving without appropriate equipment, training and supervision.
page II-105

NAUI now has several technical diving courses:

Cavern Diver
The NAUI Cavern Diver course provides you with the fundamental skills and knowledge needed for cavern diving at depths not exceeding 100 fsw (30 msw) and at a combined depth and distance penetration not exceeding 200 feet (61 meters) from the surface. Participants will become proficient in the use of lines reels while handling a light, team and line placement, zero visibility/touch contact communications while following a line, as well as many other skills that are necessary to be a competent Cavern Diver.

Cave Diver (Levels I & II)
Does the thought of diving through an underwater cave intrigue you? Are you fascinated by the possibility of diving where few divers go? The NAUI Cave Diver Levels I and II courses build on skills and knowledge taught in the Cavern Diver course. Upon successful completion of the NAUI Cave Diver Level I course, you are qualified to plan and execute limited-penetration, simple navigation, no-decompression cave dives to depths that do not exceed 100 fsw (30 msw). NAUI Cave Diver Level II are qualified to plan and execute longer penetration cave dives with staged cylinders involving complex navigation to depths that do not exceed 130 fsw (40 msw).

Cave Guide (Technical Support Leader)
The NAUI Cave Guide course provides you with the skills and knowledge needed to plan and execute guided tours in caverns and caves. As a Cave Guide, your responsibilities might include escorting stressed diver(s) out of a cave system, repairing broken guide lines, as well as assuring that all guided divers are out of the cave after completion of a dive.

Overhead Environments | NAUI Worldwide. Dive Safety Through Education

SeaRat

 

[Seawiscope]

One of the factors in this accident was the diver "straying" away from the guide, as I read from the article. We have talked about enabling and reinforcing factors, such as the alure of the spring's cave, but we have not specifically talked about preventing this "straying" of a diver from the guided group. We did talk about having two guides, one doing "clean-up" in the rear, but that probably won't happen due to economics.

I have been using a device called the SeawiscopeEY (for Seawiscope Ever Young), and a few years back met its inventor, C.Y. Tang in Hong Kong on one of my family trips there. CY gave me one to use, and we have had dialog as I have been promoting this device rather than prescription lenses in masks. You can see this device in my avitar, attached to my mask. It flips up when not in use, and I have been using it for aquatic life observation for some four or five years now. It is a regular part of my diving equipment.

Well, I recently found out that CY Tang has developed a "rear-view mirror" for masks, which would work much like the helmet mirrors or eyeglass mirrors I use when bicycling. He developed it so that Tech Divers could better monitor their equipment. I am wondering whether such a device would help these tour guides monitor the divers that they take into these cenotes? Any thoughts?

SeaRat

The SeawiscopeHB (the "rear-view mirror") is actually hand-held or be attached at the back of a gauge. It works very much like the wide-field rear-view mirror for automobiles. It was primarily designed to keep track of divers near-by. Because of the small image size for divers at a distance, I am not sure if it helps at this particular situation. HB stands for Hello Buddy, singular.

 

[chillyinCanada]

I sincerely hope that Pete and Bob are attempting to apologize to one another and reach a better understanding than they did of each other's posts. My recommendation, FWIW is that they attempt this in person, rather than by written word. Face to face would be best but perhaps not currently feasible. Hopefully, at least a phone conversation once each has cooled down.

Some poster mentioned that the article said the deceased diver "strayed from the guide". From what little I've been able to determine from the article and this thread, that can only be an expression meaning "no one knows why he wasn't there at the 30 minute point the other two divers noticed he was no longer with them".

Or have I missed some late breaking input wherein it's been revealed that any one or more of the surviving divers saw him "straying"?

For those of you that know this cavern/cave, is there any possibility of an unconscious diver in the cavern zone having their body move into the cave zone?

 

[chillyinCanada]

Hmm, I've also only just noticed that the only reason we are left to understand that the body was found in the cave zone is because J ohnnyC said so. I'm seeking clarity. JohnnyC did your sources tell you this or were you extrapolating from the original search of the cavern zone being unsuccessful in finding the body, whereas the next search did locate the body? TIA

 

[Lorenzoid]

Rear view mirror?! All a guide has to do is turn his head and look behind him every few minutes. I'm pretty sure the guide I hired did just that. Divers are also supposed to be briefed on how to use their lights: Shine your light where it's visible to the person in front of you, and if you don't see the light of the person behind you then take a look back there to make sure he's okay. I'm with those who suspect multiple errors were made.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

Here's the thing; if a diver "strays," even using a frog kick, (s)he will cover about 0.5 feet per second. If the group is going the other way, that's a minimum of 1 foot per second. If the guide looks back "every few minutes," say two minutes, at that rate of separation the distance separated could be 120 feet, and behind something too. This is why I asked about the SeawiscopeHB (rear view mirror). It seems that almost continuous monitoring by these guides would be necessary.

SeaRat

 

[Qnape]

I wanted to read through the entire thread before commenting, and that took a while. After becoming a certified divers, reading extensively here at Scubaboard and traveling to Cozumel and the Playa del Carmen area, my daughter and I became interested in diving the cenotes. Despite assurances from the various ops offering tours in the cenotes, I decided for myself and my daughter that we would get the training before entering the overhead, period, end of story. We first completed AOW, Rescue and Enriched Air. Our Cavern course in 2011 was taught in the cenotes using the NACD standard and course materials, although I wound up with a TDI certification due to paperwork snafus with NACD and our instructor. It was both the strictest and most useful course I've completed. We used the certification to independently dive in two cenotes without a guide (and yes, our certifications were checked before we were allowed to do so). Subsequently, I spent a week the next summer diving the cenotes with a guide, and another four days doing the same a year or so later. I guess we are the exception to the rule of thumb that people just won't listen to their training.

There were vast differences in the dives I did with a private guide and those I did with Dressel the following year. Dressel's clients were all open water divers, with no overhead training and most had not completed any training beyond OW. For some, this was one of the first dives after certification. The other divers who were with the private guide were more experienced, and mostly had some type of overhead training and certification (wreck, cavern - one was a cave diver who was with a wreck trained SO that wanted to see the cenotes). I very much enjoyed the dives with the guide; these included Temple of Doom and Angelita. On the other hand, during the dives with Dressel, I was used as the de facto "clean-up" diver for every single dive, since I was the only diver with overhead training aside from the guide. I cooperated with this, as it did seem to make obvious sense. During the fairly well organized introductory briefings with Dressel, I was used as a sounding board to confirm and echo various of the cavern rules I had been taught that were being introduced to the other divers.

During the cavern dives with Dressel, I wound up having to signal the guide several times as one of the divers in front of me strayed off the line and decided to "go have a closer look" at features. I was not popular for this, and as the guide did not always see my signals I had to chase 2 divers myself to get them back to the group and line. One strayed around a formation; I left the line to reach them realizing I was effectively risking my life to do so. It looked simple - just go around that column, get their attention, and come back, but my training taught me this is a simplistic and very dangerous assumption. This increased my heart and breathing rate enough so that I wound up calling the dive as I reached 2/3 of my gas supply a bit early. Once again - this did not make me popular. After all, one diver commented, once the dive was called by whomever ran to 2/3 first, we got back so quickly that most divers had 1/2 tank of gas or better. I got the distinct feeling that nobody wanted to be the first to run low - so they simply would not say so, figuring that we were not actually using 1/3 to return on most of the dives, so why turn so early?

Suffice it to say that while i loved the caverns, I will only go back in with a trained buddy or a private guide. Also - I want to know something about the guide's other clients. You don't want to tell me? I'll talk to another guide.