how to? o2 cleaning tank valves

[rjack321]

The problem is that there are two levels within the industry - air service and O2 service. Some dive shops are trying to carve out a third without any standard using anecdotal evidence. A VIP sticker that says acceptable 21%-40% is really meaningless because there is no standard behind it. Your shop may clean to near O2 service standards but another shop may not. Thus the problem.

His VIP stickers don't claim to be in 100% O2 service so I don't see the problem
(at least I don't think they do, I've lost track of the OPs tanks & valves)

As far as I know there is no official standard for 22 to 40% service at all. Its half CYA for cylinders that are basically clean (i.e. the new Fabers cited, new valves from DGX) but the manufacturer/distributor doesn't want to have the liability for O2 service. In other cases its just an excuse for a shop to charge more to wave a black light around and pop in a Viton O-ring. Its not like even a scrupulously clean scuba valve is even actually suitable for O2 service in the first place, the design is all wrong (fast opening with a nylon seat and a whole bunch of sharp turns)

For the OP I would either:
have the valve cleaned to the same level as the VIP sticker
get new VIP stickers so the tanks are in air service

Who knows how gross used valves are inside and if the burst disk is ancient etc. So I would tend towards having everything cleaned and not being cheap.

 

[cc.harley]

Something is O2 clean or not. This scuba industry nonsense of "nitrox" clean is ridiculous. There is no such thing as 40% O2 cleaning products or mostly O2 safe lubricant.

the tank and valve need to be O2 clean if it sees high pressure O2.

If you are only putting in banked Nitrox or air, you don't need to O2 clean it.

Absolutely!! Read on

Both Padi and TDI offer advanced Blender Courses that cover all the proper procedures for ALL equipment, Tanks Valves Regs in use for 100% O2 and other gasses. Tumbling, washing, rinsing etc of tanks is included in these courses. In the case of valves, it is the most important part of the tank (pinch point in the flow) with regard to O2 Clean. If you don't know exactly what you're doing please do not tell anyone at a dive shop that your tank is "O2 clean". You also need to be a Certified tank inspector to mark a VIP sticker "for O2 Use". Get the proper training and do it right. It may save your own life or the life of a dive shop owner. If you are partial pressure blending at home, good luck to you and those in the home if you don't know what you are doing. If you have a lot of tanks/valves/manifolds you want serviced, you need to either pony up the $ for the work to be done properly or.....pony up for the Training, equipment, boosters, machines, media, chemicals, lubricants, valve parts and lots of time to do it right.

 

[Scared Silly]

His VIP stickers don't claim to be in 100% O2 service so I don't see the problem. ....

As far as I know there is no official standard for 22 to 40% service at all.

The problem is just as you note: there is no official standard for 22 to 40% service. Which means someone with a VIP sticker with something to the affect of Suitable service for banked Nitrox up to 40% is meaningless because there is no standard. Someone could just slap a sticker on a cylinder without doing anything.

Its half CYA for cylinders that are basically clean (i.e. the new Fabers cited, new valves from DGX) but the manufacturer/distributor doesn't want to have the liability for O2 service. In other cases its just an excuse for a shop to charge more to wave a black light around and pop in a Viton O-ring. Its not like even a scrupulously clean scuba valve is even actually suitable for O2 service in the first place, the design is all wrong (fast opening with a nylon seat and a whole bunch of sharp turns)

Absolutely, the valve design is not the right design to start with and it goes from there.

 

[rjack321]

The problem is just as you note: there is no official standard for 22 to 40% service. Which means someone with a VIP sticker with something to the affect of Suitable service for banked Nitrox up to 40% is meaningless because there is no standard. Someone could just slap a sticker on a cylinder without doing anything.

And people filling actual O2 know that and won't be putting 100% in there.

So I'm not sure what the big problem is?

 

[Scared Silly]

And people filling actual O2 know that and won't be putting 100% in there. So I'm not sure what the big problem is?

Hopefully so, but given the crappy "homemade" VIP stickers out there the chance for ambiguity is certainly possible given that there are currently two standards air service and O2 service.

I recently saw a sticker that had the following three choices:

Breathing Air
Up to 40% O2 service
Up to 100% O2 Service

It says nothing about banked vs partial pressure filling. So it is ambiguous.

Though few and far between, there still can be and have been issues even with banked fills when the O2<40%. As such, many say the anecdotal evidence supports filling of bank O2<40% sans specialized cleaning. Which if that is the case why has there not been a standard introduced? And that is really my point.

If a shop wants to come up with their own standards so be it - not my problem. And not their problem until there is a problem. When they might find their standard has no backing and their insurance lets them deal with the problem themselves. And you can be sure any plaintiff's lawyer will be waving the CGA, OHSA, and other standards and asking why they were not followed.

To add, here is an example of crap VIP sticker (being pimp on da board by a member):

 

[rjack321]

Though few and far between, there still can be and have been issues even with banked fills when the O2<40%. As such, many say the anecdotal evidence supports filling of bank O2<40% sans specialized cleaning. Which if that is the case why has there not been a standard introduced? And that is really my point..

Any citations for these issues with banked nitrox? I have never heard of one.

We don't have a standard because we're a miniscule market that technically barely meets the definitions of "in commerce" as far as DOT is concerned. And the lack of deaths and injuries is part of the reason DOT is not focused on the weird, quirky and vague "scuba industry" BS like nitrox clean or clean to <40%.

What incentive does anyone have to develop an intermediate standard? High (liability) risk, low or no reward.

 

[Scared Silly]

Any citations for these issues with banked nitrox? I have never heard of one.

We don't have a standard because we're a miniscule market that technically barely meets the definitions of "in commerce" as far as DOT is concerned. And the lack of deaths and injuries is part of the reason DOT is not focused on the weird, quirky and vague "scuba industry" BS like nitrox clean or clean to <40%.

What incentive does anyone have to develop an intermediate standard? High (liability) risk, low or no reward.

Much of my knowledge base comes from exchanges with Mark Gresham at PSI-PCI, averaging about incidents 10 a year but with few details. Not really sure why with that many incidents we are not hearing about them???????

As for why no intermediate standard probably because of the incident rate and as you note the size of the SCUBA industry. It would be interesting to to talk those at CGA and get their take as any change would probably start there.

 

[matt_w]

The problem is just as you note: there is no official standard for 22 to 40% service. Which means someone with a VIP sticker with something to the affect of Suitable service for banked Nitrox up to 40% is meaningless because there is no standard. Someone could just slap a sticker on a cylinder without doing anything.



Absolutely, the valve design is not the right design to start with and it goes from there.

Anyone can slap a sticker on that says anything. However, I actually think the point of what you quoted is that nothing was done to prepare this tank for oxygen service so don't expose it to anything over 40%.

Is that right or wrong? Who knows. I do know no one here can link us a story describing an explosion or even a flash attributed to O2 below 40%. Does that mean it hasn't happened? Who knows. Does that mean it can't happen? Who knows.

 

[matt_w]

I recently saw a sticker that had the following three choices:

Breathing Air
Up to 40% O2 service
Up to 100% O2 Service

Here I will agree someone is mistaken and confused. There is no difference between the first two options and they are implying something has been done even though nothing has been done. That looks like a shop trying to charge extra for punching a second box on a sticker.

 

[NAM001]

I picked up some slightly used Thermo K valves (din style). I know there's not a whole lot to a valve and really o2 cleaning them really just means everything's in working order and not contaminated, also that the right lube is used. It cant be that hard to diy, i just cant find anything tutorial or guide on the web on how to do it.

Does anyone have or willing to share that knowledge/process with me?

It is not my definition rather a pointer to the industry standards. That said I find it funny you note OSHA being conservative and yet their standards except for the one for commercial applications (and does not apply to recreational scuba) are similar to the reset.

As for Blue Steel they note:

• Cylinders Oxygen cleaned for Nitrox use

Blue Steel Scuba - Faber Cylinders

Nitrox by is definition contains N2, 02, and a few other trace gases. But 90% O2, 10% N2 is nitrox.

I have also seen the following statement which probably what you are referring to: Faber steel cylinders are cleaned at the factory for oxygen-enriched service up to 40% pre-blended nitrox.

Which IMHO is a CYA statement because the while the cylinders are cleaned for oxygen-enriched service there is a specific limit on the gas. Which is the opposite of what you are trying to imply.

The tank cleaning is the same for both 40 and pure . When you get a new tank you do not get a valve with the tank. Unless you get a O2 cleaned valve you do not have a tank valve combination that is O2 comatable. Most all vip stickers are out of date in regards to current federal regulations of 23.5%.