If you could only have one tank, what would it be?

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I can't decide between Steel 72s and AL80s. Then there are my AL53 baby doubles...
I'll take those baby doubles if you ever decide you don't want them!

---------- Post Merged at 09:48 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 09:41 PM ----------

The "unable to get a full 3442 psi fill" problem is most likely a compressor issue where the shop is either unable or unwilling to go all the way to 3400 psi. Sometimes it's a pressure problem and sometimes it's just a volume issue as they can't push the entire bank that high and they don't want to top the tanks off the compressor or off a high pressure bank.

I could buy that 20 years ago when 3500 psi tanks were fairly new and not all that common, but they and the 3442 psi special permit tanks have been mainstream for over a decade now. They need to get with the times, or find another line of work.

The not honoring the "+" rating is just plain fill station/tank monkey or shop manager ignorance about what a "+" rating means, what tanks qualify (many don't believe that tanks can be "+" rated on anything other than the initial hydro test), and what it means in terms of a fill. It suggests a very dogmatic "never, ever exceed the service pressure stamped on the shoulder" mentality.

Those are also the kinds of shops that never exceed 3000 psi in a hot AL 80 and then leave you with an AL 80 that is under filled to only 2800 psi when it cools to room temp.

I spend my money elsewhere.
Well, considering I've had to explain tank markings to two of the shop employees, including one who is an instructor ( she couldn't find the hydro, didn't know which number was the born on date or the fill pressure number), I can believe it's a lack of understanding.
Fortunately, it's close and gives free pro air fills ( husband), so it's worth the aggravation, unless we need a full tank, which isn't usually the case for our lake dives.
After we take some tech classes (hoping to do that this winter) and start working on some technical dives, we'll obviously need to find a shop that provides something other than air and also fills our tanks.
 
Mine, with a full fill.
 
Buy tanks when I get there. Jk

Wish I could but that would get expensive fast.

Exactly. So if you're going to do dive vacations you have to be flexible. The idea of "I'm done with AL80's" sounds great when you're posturing out here on Scubaboard but being flexible and adaptable makes you a far better diver.

I've said it before: The best divers aren't the ones with the best gear. Or the most certifications, or often not the ones with the most experience. The best divers are calm, flexible and resourceful. They adapt to changing conditions easily and find ways to make their dives successful.

-Charles
 
If you could have only ONE tank size for recreational diving, and not taking cost into account, what would it be? Obviously this includes the 80, as I'm sure it is the perfect tank for a lot of people.

Edit: For simplicitiy's sake, assume that HP fills are not a problem.

I asked a similar question maybe two weeks ago in the SE US forum. Pretty much the answer came back HP100 steel....
 
There are two extremes...

In cave country, a 3600 psi fill in a 2400 psi 3AA steel tank is common - and that's when it cools, so the actual end pressure in the filling process is between 3800 and 4000 psi, depending on how fast they fill it and whether a date bath is used.

3AA steel tanks have a very generous safety factor, and they don't have the fatigue issues of aluminum tanks. As long as the tank does not exceed its elastic limits, it will return to its original shape and won't be harmed by an over fill. People will argue the point, but a couple decades of overfilling to nearly the test limit (4,000 psi) in N FL has yet to produce a catastrophic tank failure. ANd this is often on tanks that are, by my definition poorly maintained and often not visually inspected on an annual basis. About the only thing I've seen consistently enforced in FL is the hydro test requirement.

In most of the rest of the country, tank monkeys seem to recoil in horror at the thought of exceeding the service pressure stamped on the shoulder even if it has a current "+" rating, and most don't want to exceed the pressure even during a hot fill. This basically means that an AL 80 that holds 77 cu ft at 3000 psi will be filled to 3000 psi, but as it is warm at the end of the fill, by the time it cools to room temperature, it will be down around 2800 psi, and only hold about 72 cu ft of gas. Obviously the tank is not "full".

Their (flawed) reasoning is that it is is illegal to overfill a tank and that exceeding the service pressure at any point is over filling. That basically ignores the DOT definition of "full" which is that the tank does not exceed the service pressure when the tank and it's contents are at room temperature.

Obviously, if an AL 80 is full at room temperature (3,000 psi, 77 cu ft, at 70 degrees) and you stand it outside in the hot sun in mid August so that it heats up to 120 degrees, it will still have exactly the same volume of gas. It may be around 3100 psi - in excess of the service pressure, but it's still not overfilled as the DOT and the engineering standard used assumes that pressure in tanks will rise if they get warm.

Given that the test pressure of an AL 80 is 5,000 psi, and that the burst disc (when new) will not rupture until the pressure is 90% to 100% of the test pressure (4,500-5,000 psi), nothing bad is going to happen with the tank out in the sun, in your trunk, etc. Those kinds of things are expected to be encountered in normal use and the engineering standards account for that.

No one really advocates long term and excessive overfilling aluminum tanks due to the fatigue traits of aluminum, but overshooting the service pressure by 200-300 psi so that you get an honest 3,000 psi when it cools is not a problem and it's also entirely legal.

----

Special permit tanks like the 3442 psi X7-100 are a different matter. Pretty much no one overfills them and about all you'll get in N FL is a 3600 psi fill, like you would in a 2400 psi tank. That's done for good reason as they are designed to a different engineering standard and are a lot less "over built". They are for the most part very similar in wall thickness to a LP tank, and they are tested to only 3/2 the service pressure so they have less of a safety factor.

Unfortunately, many local dive shops won't fill a 3442 psi tank all the way to the 3600 psi it needs on a hot fill to cool to the 3442 psi range. Part of that is again a reluctance to consider that the gas and tank will cool to room temperature and it's the pressure at room temperature that counts. But part of it is just fill systems designed to accommodate AL 80s that they are reluctant or unable to push to 3500 psi.

Still, an under filled X7-100 will hold more gas than a fully filled AL 80, and the fill pressure has to drop all the way to 2650 psi in the X7-100 before you fall below the 77 cu ft you get in an AL 80.

Even a bad fill in an X7-100 is a lot better than a good fill in an AL 80, so don't get too upset over the potential for a 3000 psi fill - it's still 87 cu ft.
 
So what is your opinion about what would be a safe cave / technical fill for a new ish aluminum 80 tank if say one took the effort to use a high pressure valve rated to 3500psi or what have you. If 3AA steel tanks can be filled with 1.5 their working pressure then would it not make reason that Aluminum tanks could at least be filled to 3750 psi continually for at least the first 10 years of their life?? This is still well under their Hydro test and it sure would be nice to have that much more air on most dives.
 
So what is your opinion about what would be a safe cave / technical fill for a new ish aluminum 80 tank if say one took the effort to use a high pressure valve rated to 3500psi or what have you. If 3AA steel tanks can be filled with 1.5 their working pressure then would it not make reason that Aluminum tanks could at least be filled to 3750 psi continually for at least the first 10 years of their life?? This is still well under their Hydro test and it sure would be nice to have that much more air on most dives.

For a 3000 psi tank a safe "cave fill' would be 3000-3300 psi. Aluminum does not react the same as steel to cyclical loads. Aluminum fatigues and it fatigues from the very first cycle. The amount of fatigue increases the more it is stressed, and despite the fact that Luxfer tests they aluminum tanks for 10,000 cycles I'm still not comfortable overfilling them.

Now...I will give a bit on this, given that a 3000 psi tank that is hot filled and the decreases to 3000 psi at 70 degrees F (room temp) is "full" and legally as not been over filled, even though the tank has still experienced the stress of having 3200-3300 psi in it. In that regard I don't complain if my aluminum tanks get filled to 3300 psi in a water bath where they don't exceed 3300 psi. But I don't ask for it either. An AL 80 holds 77 cu ft at 3000 psi and only 84.7 cu ft at 3300, so that 10% over fill is only 7.7 cu ft of gas. That adds only 2.6 cu ft of penetration gas with "thirds" gas planning.

If I need more gas, I just add another AL 80. That provides another 77 cu ft of gas and another 26 cu ft of penetration gas.
 
Thanks for your reply and good information. i like the extra 7.7 cubic feet of air because it give you not only 2.6 cu ft. of penetration but 2.6 for going back and plus 2.6 bigger reserve. All this counts. What if I did not care about the tanks life and just threw it away after 5 to 10 years of life instead of keeping it for decades. Then could you not cave fill them to 3750psi like you said in a cold bath of water so they don't experience more stress, and get rid of it after say 1000 cycles instead of the 10 000 cycles?
 
I will go for a Carbon 12L it takes 3960Lt @ 330Bar and weight 11kg vs a AL-80 that is only 2200Lts @ 200Bar and weight 13kg.

Or for the people that like stream line and less weight Carbon 6.8L it takes 2240Lts @ 330Bar and weights only 6.2Kg less than half a AL-80 and the same capacity
 
Thanks for your reply and good information. i like the extra 7.7 cubic feet of air because it give you not only 2.6 cu ft. of penetration but 2.6 for going back and plus 2.6 bigger reserve. All this counts. What if I did not care about the tanks life and just threw it away after 5 to 10 years of life instead of keeping it for decades. Then could you not cave fill them to 3750psi like you said in a cold bath of water so they don't experience more stress, and get rid of it after say 1000 cycles instead of the 10 000 cycles?
Why wouldn't you just get one of the 3442psi steel 100s? It will carry more gas than an overfilled 80, weighs only 3lbs more but let's you drop 4lbs of lead, you won't have to worry about shortening its life and you won't be asking a shop to overfill it.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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