Another Al v.s SS BP

[Schwob]

I'm sure you figure for the 120 steel is probably correct, but I had a BC failure when wearing a LP 120 steel tank and wearing near zero buoyant exposure protection. I ended up quite negative at 160 feet and opted to just swim up and it was more strenuous than I liked. It left a big impression on me about being "extra heavy" and having nothing to ditch. Incidentally, I had another total BC failure this weekend - with the OP assembly popping off.

Yep, that's why I've been asking about "being comfortable w/o ditchable weight. Sorry for diverting the OP's thread there... - I only had an air bladder failure that must have occurred during transport and I noticed it when rinsing out the inside of the bladder after 2 weeks of warm (salt) water diving (last year). So no in water failure - yet -...
Anyway, following that I practiced a little with emptying out all air out of the BCD (but then it was colder fresh water and I was in a 5mil (all I got right now, need warmer gear...) + vest & hood & gloves and socks... and trying to ascend w/o any extra lift (and still 3/5 gas in an AL-80 and the Al 40 pony full of course).... didn't really like it that much... I could do it. I was only at 40 ... 45 feet... Ended up hanging pretty heavy on the skinny sausage string sausage during the safety stop (w/o kicking...) Did it, but was not comfortable with that all that much... and thought there are reasons to carry either ditch-able weight or a reliable means of redundant lift... Wondered how I would have fared trying that from 130 feet (some day I'll know) ... I sure will need to wrap my mind more around that and practice more (ha, or buy a dry-suit...) before I know where I stand... but that's why I've been asking about "comfort w/o ditch-able weight and w/o redundant wing...".
I sure am not experienced enough to make my final call on that yet (no kidding, not even owning a BP&W, just looking into it and only having used them (with double 120HPs) for 3 days so far... . Had no extra weight then either... - but did have a redundant bladder (manual inflate for that). And I am sure wondering how way more experienced divers think and feel about this... (no matter how differing those thoughts might be)...

 

[Schwob]

...I don't need weight I can drop to feel comfortable.

Jim, you are definitely having me thinking about this...

 

[cool_hardware52]

The solution to being over weighted is never a bigger, or redundant BC. None of that matters if the diver panics, and panic remains a possibility even for experienced divers.

The safer approach is being properly weighted, some would call that a "balanced rig".

"But, but , but I need a Heiser 190 and it's too warm to wear *any* exposure protection, so tell me exactly how I'm supposed to dive a "balanced rig!!!, and I got a smoking deal on these tanks of Craigslist!!!"

Er, your premise is flawed. No recreational dive justifies the use of unsafe configurations. There are safer choices, including staying out of the water........

Tobin

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Some people erroneously think that having extra lead to ditch in an emergency is beneficial. I disagree with that idea.. because you only want to carry the ballast you need and nothing more.

However, I have been diving a long time and seen a lot of different situations, and to be honest, I feel much better wearing 6-8 lbs of lead on a (rubber) belt and a thicker suit (like I am doing now in the winter in Florida) versus wearing a really thin suit in the summer and carrying zero ditchable lead.

For reference, I am "not thin" and wear an aluminum plate BP/W or a normal recreational BC and usually have steel tanks with capacity of around 98 to 140 cu-ft. I can swim my rig up, if i have enough air.

I think it is important to be able to reach the surface if the BC completely fails at depth. There are a lot of ways to accomplish this goal, depending on cicumstances, but I would rather be able to fall back on "brute force" (dropping lead and swimming) rather than an smb or some thing more complicated. I think i would be comfortable relying on a dry suit or even a redundant wing as long as a lift bag or something was a plan C,

 

[dmaziuk]

at what point are you still feeling comfortable with out and at what point would you choose to have ditch-able weight on you (over not having it)?

<raises hand/> I'm not entirely sure a steel plate would mean no weight for me and if I need to carry any, I'd rather have it ditchable, yes. So I have an Alu plate.

 

[redacted]

On the rare occasions I dive a steel 120 with my steel plate in warm water, which is pretty much only in Cozumel for me, I use a 5 mm suit to help offset the weight. Neoprene in the tropics is no joy, and at the beginning of the dive I might let a little water into the neck to cool myself off, but since a 120 allows a long dive, by the end of the dive I am rarely wishing I had a thinner suit.

Not the best solution but it works. This is the type of thing you must be prepared to do if you do not have a light weight plate for tropical diving.

 

[_Ralph]

I own and use both (AL and SS plates).

For aluminum tanks in salt water, I generally use the SS plate.

For everything else, the AL plate is used. I generally have too much ballast in what I'm doing most of the time (heavy canisters for lighting and heating systems).


I bought the AL plate several years after the SS plate, mainly for travel. but found out I don't like it for travel. I'm weird.

When I head south to the tropics, I prefer to bring the SS plate, no additional weight required in a 3/2mm wetsuit and an AL80. The extra 4lbs isn't a huge factor in airline weight for me (everything - fins, exposure protection, BP/W, 'gifts' - fits into a large backpack that so far, no agent has weighed). Regs, smaller camera equipment and at least 3 days of clothes/outdoor wear in my carryon.


_R

 

[tbone1004]

@Streydog in that case I would bring my Kydex plate. Going from the Brigate it is quite possible you won't need any lead at all, but the SS plate will make you too heavy

@Schwaeble I do not own a redundant wing, but if diving singles, I never bother bringing redundant buoyancy and not going to say never, but it is exceedingly rare I need to use any lead *I consider it extenuating circumstances if I do*. Diving a balanced rig means that you are never more than the weight of the gas in the tank negative, and even the largest of steel tanks aren't heavy enough to be unable to kick up to the surface. It is a common requirement in lifeguard training, and we require it with basic scuba, to be able to recover a 10lb diving brick from the bottom of the pool in nothing but a bathing suit, and be able to move around at the surface with said weight. That is roughly equivalent to the gas in a 120cf tank and with fins on, is quite an easy task. Considering you are highly unlikely to lose all buoyancy capability in a wing, most deem it a non-issue. Annoying issue, but if you're diving in open water you should have a big f*ckoff 2m safety sausage that you can basically stand on with one foot to keep you at the surface once you get up there

@dumpsterDiver which LP120 were you using? The Fabers are actually quite floaty, it's the PST's and Worthingtons that will eat you for breakfast if you aren't careful, especially if cave filled....

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I was using the faber 121 or 125 tank, 2400 psi rating.when I had a problem on a deep weck with my BC - solo- I have heard them called different numbers. With a pony bottle and the required two regulators, they are are pretty heavy when full. Still managed to take two large fish on the dive and then regretted the deco time.

 

[Schwob]

@ cool_hardware52: I don't really dive over weighted anymore (surly did so increasingly less my first 20. ... 40 some dives), but, your words ring true and you got me thinking if I did, for practise to learn what I can lift by kicking (how ever it feels like), I'll know that and just knowing that should help.
@tbone1004:
Yeah that sausage is on me all dives, even just in the quarry, cause I like knowing I have extra lift for who knows what for... for plan D if A, B and C fail... and while I don't really like the knots in the reel line I use with it they (should) enable me to ascend and safety stop (and / or stop deeper) blind if I had to ... and I know how much lift it could give me and I labled that next to the valve on it (for that stupid moment down there when I cold use the reminder).. ... I am just weird thinking in contingencies all the time... and wanting a vew ready in my mind for true comfort...

"Lifting 10lbs from pool bottom:"
Well your basic class was better than mine. Good point about knowing what you can lift. I will want to know from a lot deeper than a pool -and with overcoming my suits loss of buoyancy due to compression at depth. I am forming this practise plan for myself (not all for in one dive & I need to wait until things warm up anyway, not equipped yet for this cold...and then I need to actually do / practise something anyway to make quarry diving while I am stuck with that more interesting...).
Step 1: Lift the equivalent of all the air weight in my tank (just AL80 for now, so it's like 2000PSI in a 120) in extra weight from 20 feet.
Steps 2 & 3: 40', 80' (end of local quarry depth...)
Steps 4 thru 6: Retry, but kicking with one fin only (cause you know... being weird with contingencies)
Next: Repeat with twice the extra weight diving with what I have, two Al80s (and an Al40 pony). Ditto with single fin kicking. I suspect that's where fizzle out from deeper. Will be good to know so .... for me at least... And then I can go on to see where things end for me lifting with 2 fins just to know... (as long as I have enough dedundant lift on me to lift it all would want to avoid ditching of course)
Anyway, sorry for thinking aloud in probably stupid terms for most... I am just more comfortable knowing... so, I'll put myself in that place (safely...)...