Another Al v.s SS BP

[dumpsterDiver]

Yes it is good to be cautious and great to think about and plan for contingencies, but it is impossible to plan for everything and at some point you need to acknowledge that you are going to die if a b and c happen. Maybe even just a.

It is also helpful to keep in mind that adding gear to address too many contingencies, becomes impractical and the added complexity eventually reduces safety and impacts your fun and ability to function efficiently.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Reconciling safety with minimalism sure wasn't something that was obvious to me. I found Fundies provided some clarity to my diving.

 

[Schwob]

Yes it is good to be cautious and great to think about and plan for contingencies, but it is impossible to plan for everything and at some point you need to acknowledge that you are going to die if a b and c happen. Maybe even just a.

It is also helpful to keep in mind that adding gear to address too many contingencies, becomes impractical and the added complexity eventually reduces safety and impacts your fun and ability to function efficiently.

Yep, agree, totally - but that's the beauty of just practicing something safely --- the task load is reduced to what you practice and the contingencies for that practice. And putting all one ever practiced together into one gigantic real life scenario would be too much and downright silly... but nevertheless... I may be a general dimwit, but "down there" I am the maybe only, certainly easiest accessible and thus sharpest weapon at my disposal, so I'll try to make myself "better"... And yes, I promise, things are "in perspective" during non practice dives...

 

[stuartv]

Well I use a lighter weight exactly legal carry on sized backpack not a roll on, but all good advise there.

If you don't mind: curious about those short fins (#1):
In you opinion (my current fins are too long for sure): What are good fins that are not too long for truly fitting inside carry on luggage - (stiffer tek dive type fins would be just fine for me)?
(#2) Some of those fins that might fall into that category just seem to be super heavy. If I seem to be able to trim myself out OK now w/o super heavy fins on the feet is there another reason for going with heavy fins over (if similarly stiff and durable (and maybe that's the issue) less weighty ones if there is a choice?
Well, with double 120HPs set up high enough so I reach the valves well enough I may like heavier fins at the feet, haven't tried that yet (but know I was a little top heavy with my very light fins whichever way I tried to alter the rig when I tried).... - Anyway, are there other reasons to go with heavy fins over lighter otherwise similar enough ones?

I carry on a largest-allowed-size rollaboard and also my "personal item" is a small backpack. I fit my BP/W, 3/2 wetsuit, masks, regs, booties, etc. in those two things. I.e. I carry on all my diving gear except cutting devices and fins, which go in a checked bag.

If you're going to check a bag anyway, then you may as well take fins that work well for you, versus compromising for the sake of fitting something in a carry-on. Personally, after I fit all that other stuff in my carry-on bags, I couldn't fit fins, no matter what model fins I had.

I have fins that are pretty negative buoyancy (Hollis F1) for diving with a drysuit. They help tame my floaty feet that I get in a drysuit. For diving in a wetsuit, I use neutral fins. I would not choose to use fins that are negative enough to throw off my trim and required me to add trim weight up high to compensate (i.e. using negative fins in a wetsuit). If you like your fins and get good trim with them, why not just put them in a checked bag?

My favorite fins for recreational/vacation diving are freediving fins. The ones I have allow the blade to be removed from the foot pocket, so I can disassemble them and pack as needed. Even by themselves, though, the blades are longer than the TSA regs for a carry-on bag. But, being so thin, maybe they would allow them anyway. I don't know. I have always put them in a checked bag. If I were trying to travel with no checked bag, I would definitely try putting the foot pockets in my carry-on and just strapping the 2 thin freediving blades to the outside of my rollaboard.

 

[Schwob]

@Schwaeble , have you considered a course such as GUE Fundamentals? The "balanced rig" is covered, as well as some other issues touched on in this thread. Safety is a major focus.

Yes, actually I did.
The rest here just for FYI... rambling alert:
And I read about their philosophy / requirements ... at the time... I like the philosophy behind it, I sort of tick that way... I am not sure I am sold on the rigidity behind the philosophy... that's the trade off between running a training organisation training to a standard and being a situationally flexible adaptive individual... But based on what I read their training certainly looks thorough and well thought out to me.... Anyway, don't know anyone who trained with GUE in person (well, new diver, duh.), live in Illinois (not a GUE bastion)... when I started, the way I started this (GUE class) did not want to work out - time and place wise..
Also, I am just going to say, I do not have an issue (anymore at least) with a balanced rig... if that is what you are thinking.
So I took a the initial Padi class locally, AOW on Bonaire (with my Teenage son) and off we went diving on our own - and frankly, at that point I felt I learned by far the most during those self guided dives... (of course I've also been trying to keep learning...), although that AOW class was a gods end to get my son and me in sync with each other since we never dove together and both only had the OW dives (at different times and places) so far... That was the right thing to do in our situation and for that reason and for getting set on a track to better and better buoancy control it was a good class... otherwise it was soso at best - but hey, it got us going, so, good!.
A Padi "Fundamentals in Tech class" (learn and practise most everything in Tech 40, except don't do actual deco - sort of like an intro to tech class but two weekends and I think better) was by far the best class I took so far. From what I experienced I can totally identify behind the tech philosophy behind diving and with knowing what you are doing and why you are doing it - period. The other stuff even while it all was new seemed just "light" to me and greatly varying in quality pending on who taught... Ibut i guess it serves it's purpose..
My solo class was SDI but it was at that point mostly for the card, nothing new.. to me at that point (due to the Fundamentals in Tech class and me already diving with a AL40 pony anyway etc...), aside of that it was the second best class I took. Deep and Wreck class (just the PADI "specialities") were OK. Did not think I needed them (after the Fundamentals in Tech), they were meant to get my son safely there (who is too young for anything Tech (and that's a good thing)), unfortunately he had to bail out due to school commitments... Anyway, I enjoyed doing them - it was diving after all and there is always something to learn and practise. Off curriuculum valid learning was working through an simulated silted out wreck (with capable, (and properly certified buddy) and help by volunteer "silters with buckets") and (the wreck was "clean" and small...
... and in (not a training scenario - not intentional anyway) in being in place to see a drysuit diver in front of me struggle with his buoyancy (light legs...) and wrapping himself up in his wreck line in a wreck in a "wildly flailing mess" in the process of trying to recover and in figuring out how to safely calm him down and when to trust he is calm so I dared to get close enough to unwrap him etc...
Anyway, as little as I dove so far, it at this point would be tough to justify to start over from scratch with GUE (the only way they seem to do it start with them from scratch (and from some of the classes I took I fully understand why)... I mean it would be tough to justify the expense and the time... I still think it could / would be good... but, this year I have serious vacation and time issues ... and will realistically end up just practicing dives & scenarios (and hopefully I get to address my yet too skimpy thermal protection) until I have a bigger chunk of time again to maybe get into tech to the point where I feel I trust myself being safe at it.... Now, whom (organisation and trainer) to do that with if and when so... - and where (local or Florida or Philippines or. Red Sea or Caribbean or Thailand or.....) and to do it in BP&W or in sidemount... that I hope to work up to answer for myself maybe this year, certainly next... Got stuff to figure out on the way...

 

[dmaziuk]

@tbone1004:

Well I use a lighter weight exactly legal carry on sized backpack not a roll on, but all good advise there.

If you don't mind: curious about those short fins (#1):
In you opinion (my current fins are too long for sure): What are good fins that are not too long for truly fitting inside carry on luggage - (stiffer tek dive type fins would be just fine for me)?

I recently bought a yukon odyssey 45+10, I haven't taken it on a plane yet. It takes my bp, wing, aeris accel fins, mask, booties, shorty. The "10" bit fits laplet, batteries, etc., and should qualify for "personal item". The whole thing is an inch or two longer than prescribed carry-on size, but slimmer and narrower, so we'll see...

 

[tbone1004]

@Schwaeble one of my favorite activities is when students or other divers complain about not being able to flat turn or back up. I will then remove my fins and perform said skills without issue. They get rather grumpy about that. I can move around quite efficiently without them compared to most, but I'm lazy, so my monstrous fins allow me to kick at about a 1:2 ratio to most other divers. Unfortunately I have yet to find a halfway decent fin that I can fit into that will fit into a carryon. Is what it is, I survive. I don't fly for scuba diving hardly ever, so it's rarely an issue.

Regarding the team discussion, I am not a team oriented diver, so even if diving with "buddies" we consider all dives same ocean dives. We are diving the same plan, at the same time, but consider ourselves fully independent. Buddies are there to make any situation easier for us, but not to be relied on. In OW, that means I dive doubles almost exclusively since I don't particularly enjoy pony bottles

You won't be able to do any GUE classes in sidemount as an FYI. If you want sidemount you have to go elsewhere.
Fundies isn't going to gain you anything in terms of being able to dive somewhere, what it could do is ingrain the team mentality into you and your sons diving as well as reinforcing skills and procedures etc. I do not have any GUE certs and have some major fundamental disagreements on things with them, particularly solo diving, but if you want to get whipped into shape and believe in team diving, I think it's worth taking. MER has a couple rounds of it going on in Raleigh, NC this summer which is not a bad place to hang out for a few days, especially if you're into craft decompression aids, though Florida has much nicer water.

If you are in the Chicago area, I would highly recommend becoming associated with @Dive Right In Scuba


@dmaziuk I fly quite a bit for business, so I try not to violate the length structures for carryons because they destroy overhead space. I literally want to bash someones head in when I see hipsters getting on planes with full size week long hiking packs for carryons since they take up as much room as 3 rollaboards. At 26.5 I think it would probably fit my fins, but would be cutting it close due to the big foot pockets, but I won't be "that guy" that has to turn a backpack sideways because it's too long for the overheads. It may be just short enough and just narrow enough to squeeze all the way back into the corner, but unsure.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Yes, actually I did. . . .
Also, I am just going to say, I do not have an issue (anymore at least) with a balanced rig... if that is what you are thinking. . . .

This previous post is what prompted me to suggest considering Fundies, since it relates to a balanced rig. Fundies could provide some insight into the questions you ask. GUE is by no means the only source of answers--you're getting some good ones right here in this thread--but Fundies does address issues such as ditchable weight, and swimming up the rig in the event of wing failure. I consider all that part of the "balanced rig" discussion.

Curious because I wonder myself what to buy going forward in that regard:
When those of you who dive a BP&W in a "not so tec mode" and bring your light set-up w/o redundant wing and favor doing so with a SS BP and no ditch-able weight - are you always comfortable? (with redundant wing and or sturdy liftbag this is a moot question).
I mean you probably carry at least an SMB and have redundant buoancy in that way and maybe you are weighted such that you are fairly certain you could swim up anyway if all else fails... I am wondering about the mental aspect... at what point are you still feeling comfortable with out and at what point would you choose to have ditch-able weight on you (over not having it)?
Do you practice ascending the wing entirely empty from time to time from deeper depth to arrive at that "mental-comfort" (coming from practised certainty then) - or what do you do to arrive at the conclusion that you indeed will not need ditchable weight?

Also, your mention in another post of carrying two SMBs reminded me that GUE addresses the idea of balancing safety with minimalism.

That said, GUE isn't to everyone's liking, nor is it the answer to every question on SB. Just thought I'd toss it out there. Sounds like you have in fact considered it. Well, maybe consider it again

 

[dmaziuk]

I won't be "that guy" that has to turn a backpack sideways because it's too long for the overheads. It may be just short enough and just narrow enough to squeeze all the way back into the corner, but unsure.

When I fly local it's typically smaller planes whose overhead bins are too small for "standard" ones anyway. I expect with the day pack detached, and because it's a soft(-er) pack, its 26.5" should fit into a jumbo jet's overhead bin "properly", but like I said, we'll see. If it comes to that I'll find another dam hippie's tekpack and squeeze it in sideways next to that.

 

[Schwob]

@Schwaeble one of my favorite activities is when students or other divers complain about not being able to flat turn or back up. I will then remove my fins and perform said skills without issue. They get rather grumpy about that.ependent. Buddies are there to make any situation easier for us, but not to be relied on. In OW, that means I dive doubles almost exclusively since I don't particularly enjoy pony bottles

You won't be able to do any GUE classes in sidemount as an FYI. If you want sidemount you have to go elsewhere.
Fundies isn't going to gain you anything in terms of being able to dive somewhere, what it could do is ingrain the team mentality into you and your sons diving as well as reinforcing skills and procedures etc. I do not have any GUE certs and have some major fundamental disagreements on things with them, particularly solo diving, but if you want to get whipped into shape and believe in team diving, I think it's worth taking. MER has a couple rounds of it going on in Raleigh, NC this summer which is not a bad place to hang out for a few days, especially if you're into craft decompression aids, though Florida has much nicer water.

If you are in the Chicago area, I would highly recommend becoming associated with @Dive Right In Scuba


@dmaziuk I fly quite a bit for business, so I try not to violate the length structures for carryons because they destroy overhead space. I literally want to bash someones head in when I see hipsters getting on planes with full size week long hiking packs for carryons since they take up as much room as 3 rollaboards. At 26.5 I think it would probably fit my fins, but would be cutting it close due to the big foot pockets, but I won't be "that guy" that has to turn a backpack sideways because it's too long for the overheads. It may be just short enough and just narrow enough to squeeze all the way back into the corner, but unsure.

Hihihihi ... (about the grumpy students) I can relate to the feeling of inadequacy for other reasons... my first few hours in the pool with a doubles 120HP set that wasn't set up right I was quite top heavy and the belt was too short for my girth and on it's last 1/2 inch and I could really only reach the valves by loosening the belt which meant the crotch strap fell out and needed to be fished for after... it started as a nightmare, became a challenge, change to a rig with longer belt and a few adjustments made all the difference and then it still was very humbling until i came to grips with how different it feels (especially when very shallow and little air in the wing)) with all that weight centered above your back and no weight around the tummy) ... that high center of gravity feeling was quite new and humbling at first... got a little grumpy too... But challenge accepted and adjustments figured out and mental adjustments done and then it became cool...

GUW & no sidemount & "very restrictive" - yes I am aware... but thanks for the heads up.

Dive Right in Scuba in the Chicago Area: Yes, thanks. Am aware too, found them in earnest when I could not find a solo class locally elsewhere. A bit of a haul for me, but good place and maybe the best "in reach". Not a bad experience yet... And they saved my bacon by repairing my busted Apeks Black Ice air cell successfully for a reasonable price instead of just selling me a new bladder for an exorbitant price (when Apeks / Aqualung would not touch it ...) - So, good place!