Is this an over-reaction/what would you do?

[Tippytoes12]

Top marks , you definitely did the right thing and were not over reacting at all.

 

[t-mac]

Agree you did the right thing. The first priority is always making sure everyone gets back - whether it is formally your responsibility or not. I would hope someone would do the same for me, even if they weren't my buddy or my DM. That said, the girl was certified and should be capable of diving within her training or to let someone know she's out of those bounds. Her foul for sure, but there are plenty of threads on poor training here that explain why this kind of thing all too common. Second of course is the DM. They are definitely assuming responsibility and should have properly assessed and anticipated this based on her lack of experience or at least handled it differently and not leaving her safety to you. You were also right in saying something and in finding a new buddy for subsequent dives.

Well done!

 

[halocline]

It's tough to blame the DM from your group on this one. A diver originally not in his group showed up during the dive and added to his level of responsibility. If he had accompanied the distressed diver to her safety stop, he would have been abandoning the divers that were assigned to his group, a definite no-no. I guess the 'blame' (not a good word, really) for this situation developing was the woman herself (for not sticking with her group), her original buddy, and possibly her original DM. It doesn't matter....you saw the situation for what it was and did a good deed. You might have prevented someone from getting injured and drowning. That's certainly worth a few minutes of dive time!

DM responsibility does vary from region to region and in various conditions. Personally, I consider DMs to be guides and do not rely on them for anything other than navigation. I don't think it's fair to them to be asked to babysit divers who can't manage their own dive, unless they are working one-on-one more in the role of an instructor than a guide. Definitely they will assist divers as needed, but IMO each diver is responsible for his/her own safety, and to a limited extent, the safety of their buddy. I say that because in this case, if your buddy had become entangled or lost within the wreck and drowned I don't believe it would have been your responsibility. He chose to enter an overhead by himself (VERY risky) without consulting you.

 

[RB7]

I think the OP's reaction was appropriate. If a DM sees that a novice diver is visibly uncomfortable, at the very least it is expected from a professional DM to ensure that he takes reasonable steps to ensure she gets back safely. Sending her off unaccompanied does not meet this criteria. if he did not want to leave the group along, he could have asked for someone to volunteer accompany her back. On a recent liveaboard trip, one of the novice divers in the group had her computer crap out on the 2nd day of diving mid dive ....the DM evaluated against the risk of her continuing the dive without a functioning computer and indicated if someone would be willing to buddy up with her to return back to the boat. One of the other more experienced members in the dive group stepped up and they both returned back to the surface.. the rest of the group waited till we saw them safely reach the surface and pop their SMB before we proceeded. Did that eat up dive time for everyone and cut short the dive for the volunteer .. sure it did .. BUT safety should take higher priority. Dives can always be made up.

 

[crabbyfiddler]

Admins - please feel free to move if this is not the appropriate forum, I'm not sure this is classified as a "near miss".

During a recent dive trip there was a minor (or potential) incident involving another diver and I was wondering whether my response to it was an over-reaction or how would people handle something like this.

This was a dive in benign conditions - good viz, warm water, little current. 12 divers, 2 dive masters. Divers have widely varying levels of experience, between less than 10 dives and several hundred dives.

Divers get allocated to two groups of six randomly. There is no requirement for buddies or buddy checks. The person I was diving with previously is now in another group and a person from my group puts his hand up to be my buddy. He's diving with huge camera and fancy shmancy equipment.

The other group has a very novice diver - only a couple of dives after OW and those years ago. I did a shore dive with her the previous day and she had high air use and poor buoyancy control (as expected at that experience level).

Two groups meet on a wreck about 20 metres down. My buddy shoots off with his camera, enters the wreck (without indicating to me that he's doing it) and is not glancing my way even once. I try to keep an eye on him but I am certainly not going to go inside the wreck and he doesn't pay any attention to me.

After about 15-20 minutes our group leaves the wreck. I got tired of trying to chase my buddy around and he has swum off somewhere with his camera. I'm with the dive group and am perfectly comfortable.

The problem is that the novice diver in the other group got separated from her group and ended up with our group. She does not have a buddy with her. She is having some trouble with her mask, appears agitated and has breathed her tank down to 50 bar. She indicates to our DM that she's low on air.

He points her to the safety stop rope, just within visibility range (so probably 20-25m away I'm guessing) and swims off to continue leading our group. The novice diver swims to the rope by herself, hands and feet flailing. I'm watching her and she's not looking like a calm, comfortable diver! I My buddy is nowhere to be seen (not surprising), the DM has swum off and there isn't anyone looking at this novice diver.

I decide that I don't want to be the last person to have seen her alive and follow her. She's trying to hang onto the safety stop rope at around 2m depth, but is too positive. I check that she's ok, help her down to the correct depth, and we do the safety stop together, using my computer as she doesn't have one. We exchange ok signals every 30 seconds or so and I'm monitoring her air.

We come up after the SS, I make sure she's established her buoyancy. She's out of breath and exhausted. We have to float on the surface for about 5 minutes before she's ok to climb back into the boat. It seems her mask continually leaked under water and she panicked and breathed through her tank very quickly. She's very apologetic for having cut my dive short.

I'm seriously angry that a DM would send a novice diver, in difficulty, up by herself. I tell the DMs that this should not be done. And they didn't do it on subsequent dives, so they must have taken it on board.

Now I wonder if that is an over-reaction and what should a DM do in these sorts of circumstances? He does have a group to lead too.

It would not be such an issue if she had a proper buddy, but the system wasn't enforced. She was following a couple of people, but they didn't notice she was separated and I'm not sure they ever saw it as a "buddy" relationship.

My buddy came up 20 minutes later, not having noticed my absence. I declined to dive with him as a buddy subsequently.

What would people do in this sort of circumstance?
Am I over-reacting when I think that there was a real risk in sending this diver up by herself and the DM should not have done so? (I was just thinking to when I had that level of dive experience and I would have freaked out if sent off by myself).
I am also conscious that I was not able to maintain proper buddy protocol and surfaced without my buddy.

Admins - please feel free to move if this is not the appropriate forum, I'm not sure this is classified as a "near miss".

During a recent dive trip there was a minor (or potential) incident involving another diver and I was wondering whether my response to it was an over-reaction or how would people handle something like this.

This was a dive in benign conditions - good viz, warm water, little current. 12 divers, 2 dive masters. Divers have widely varying levels of experience, between less than 10 dives and several hundred dives.

Divers get allocated to two groups of six randomly. There is no requirement for buddies or buddy checks. The person I was diving with previously is now in another group and a person from my group puts his hand up to be my buddy. He's diving with huge camera and fancy shmancy equipment.

The other group has a very novice diver - only a couple of dives after OW and those years ago. I did a shore dive with her the previous day and she had high air use and poor buoyancy control (as expected at that experience level).

Two groups meet on a wreck about 20 metres down. My buddy shoots off with his camera, enters the wreck (without indicating to me that he's doing it) and is not glancing my way even once. I try to keep an eye on him but I am certainly not going to go inside the wreck and he doesn't pay any attention to me.

After about 15-20 minutes our group leaves the wreck. I got tired of trying to chase my buddy around and he has swum off somewhere with his camera. I'm with the dive group and am perfectly comfortable.

The problem is that the novice diver in the other group got separated from her group and ended up with our group. She does not have a buddy with her. She is having some trouble with her mask, appears agitated and has breathed her tank down to 50 bar. She indicates to our DM that she's low on air.

He points her to the safety stop rope, just within visibility range (so probably 20-25m away I'm guessing) and swims off to continue leading our group. The novice diver swims to the rope by herself, hands and feet flailing. I'm watching her and she's not looking like a calm, comfortable diver! I My buddy is nowhere to be seen (not surprising), the DM has swum off and there isn't anyone looking at this novice diver.

I decide that I don't want to be the last person to have seen her alive and follow her. She's trying to hang onto the safety stop rope at around 2m depth, but is too positive. I check that she's ok, help her down to the correct depth, and we do the safety stop together, using my computer as she doesn't have one. We exchange ok signals every 30 seconds or so and I'm monitoring her air.

We come up after the SS, I make sure she's established her buoyancy. She's out of breath and exhausted. We have to float on the surface for about 5 minutes before she's ok to climb back into the boat. It seems her mask continually leaked under water and she panicked and breathed through her tank very quickly. She's very apologetic for having cut my dive short.

I'm seriously angry that a DM would send a novice diver, in difficulty, up by herself. I tell the DMs that this should not be done. And they didn't do it on subsequent dives, so they must have taken it on board.

Now I wonder if that is an over-reaction and what should a DM do in these sorts of circumstances? He does have a group to lead too.

It would not be such an issue if she had a proper buddy, but the system wasn't enforced. She was following a couple of people, but they didn't notice she was separated and I'm not sure they ever saw it as a "buddy" relationship.

My buddy came up 20 minutes later, not having noticed my absence. I declined to dive with him as a buddy subsequently.

What would people do in this sort of circumstance?
Am I over-reacting when I think that there was a real risk in sending this diver up by herself and the DM should not have done so? (I was just thinking to when I had that level of dive experience and I would have freaked out if sent off by myself).
I am also conscious that I was not able to maintain proper buddy protocol and surfaced without my buddy.

Good for you for possibly preventing an unfortunate incident/accident. There are several things that really puzzle me about this whole scenario, but one thing really leapt out at me. She had NO dive computer...and was not a seasoned diver? I thought a computer was a prerequisite for anyone who isn't diving tables, and I can't imagine someone with the lack of experience that she apparently had knowing the tables.

As a newbie, there were a few divers who helped me considerably a few times, and to them I am forever grateful. One of them is a mod on this board. (thanks Marg!) In turn, I have been happy to assist others if I was able and their buddy was oblivious or uncertain as to what to do. That's called being a decent human being.

Good for you. I hope she was grateful, and I hope she continues in her training and gains the experience and control she lacked.

Now, back the that dive op...

 

[yle]

She had NO dive computer...and was not a seasoned diver? I thought a computer was a prerequisite for anyone who isn't diving tables, and I can't imagine someone with the lack of experience that she apparently had knowing the tables.

It's possible (and I say this only because I've witnessed it happening) that the plan was for her to just "stay with her buddy" or the DM because they had a computer.

Works fine until it doesn't.

 

[crabbyfiddler]

It's possible (and I say this only because I've witnessed it happening) that the plan was for her to just "stay with her buddy" or the DM because they had a computer.

Works fine until it doesn't.

Just no.

 

[Iralub]

Good for you for possibly preventing an unfortunate incident/accident. There are several things that really puzzle me about this whole scenario, but one thing really leapt out at me. She had NO dive computer...and was not a seasoned diver? I thought a computer was a prerequisite for anyone who isn't diving tables, and I can't imagine someone with the lack of experience that she apparently had knowing the tables.

As a newbie, there were a few divers who helped me considerably a few times, and to them I am forever grateful. One of them is a mod on this board. (thanks Marg!) In turn, I have been happy to assist others if I was able and their buddy was oblivious or uncertain as to what to do. That's called being a decent human being.

Good for you. I hope she was grateful, and I hope she continues in her training and gains the experience and control she lacked.

Now, back the that dive op...

Didn't know the computer was a prerequisite.The dive here wasn't particularly deep (about 22m max) and, as far as NDLs were concerned, she was much more likely to run out of air before she ran out of NDL time. I have to say that early on I did some dives relying on my buddy's or DM's computer, but none of them were deep dives. Not suggesting this practice is a generally good idea, and now I would not dive without a computer to this sort of depth.

I think paying it forward is a great way to thank those who have helped divers in the past and there were some who have helped me

To the great credit of the lady concerned, she continued diving and is determined to pursue this activity and improve in it. So that, at least, is a win.

 

[mi000ke]

I know that if I were her I would be grateful that you did the right thing. That said, there is another active thread here about DM responsibilities, and as you can imagine it ranges all over the place. I am a relatively novice diver (35 dives) and I am almost always a single on a boat dive. I usually buddy with the DM, but I have finally concluded that I need to treat the dive almost as though it were solo. The DM, while my buddy, is focused on the group as well and can't help but not give me full buddy attention that I try to give the DM (not they they might need my help very often). The few instabuddies I have had were essentially not buddies. And so someone like this women who is not yet comfortable diving also needs to take responsibility for her situation and to do whatever is needed (more instructional dives, private DM, whatever) to be able to dive with minimal supervision if diving on a tourist boat.

At what point do we tell new/novice divers THEY need to either take responsibility for their skills or make sure they are diving in a well controlled situation regarding buddies, DMs, conditions,etc. No instructor every clearly said this to me, but thanks to the kind souls on SB it's been made pretty clear. So to my novice colleagues: do whatever you need to do to get comfortable on a dive or don't do the dive! Take a buoyancy course. Do a refresher/checkout dive. Hire a private dedicated DM/buddy. Stick to resort/discovery dives. Do a lot of pool time. But don't count on "everything will be OK" or "the DM will save me." They may...but don't bet your life on it.

I dive with what I think of as some of the best operators here on CGI, yet I am now (finally) taking responsibility for my dives. I have taken two buoyancy dive courses with a private instructor and now have it pretty well dialed in. I purchased my own equipment to keep things consistent. I practice breathing exercises and my SAC is about .45-.50. I watch my air and ndl like a hawk. I have called a dive when I thought conditions were too rough. When I get to our agreed turnaround psi I call the turnaround if we haven't turned yet, and by 600 I call the safety stop if we not there yet. I think the DMs actually appreciate it.

But to the OP's point, I hope I would have done what you did and help her out. Good show.

 

[RandomGuy1]

So what did the other DM / Group say about the missing diver? Did they abort their dive looking for her, or were they still down when you surfaced?