FP triple fatality

[cephalopod2]

This article states that Gilles' wife was also on the dive, but did not enter the 'cave' and that Gilles visited this 'cave' regularly. Les trois plongeurs décédés à Ahe étaient expérimentés

Very sad.

 

[Darghu]

I'll try to alert some French divers here to help you understand exactly those French level system:

- PE means supervised, must be taken before a PA, a divemaster/instructor is supervising you.
- PA means unsupervised, you can go ahead without a divemaster/instructor, with or without a dive club/center.
- Rescue skills start from level 3

You have 2 ways to dive :
- with a dive club/center (you are under the Code du Sport section scuba diving)
- without/outside a dive structure and their authorities
In both case in case of problems you are under the civil/penal/criminal laws.

In a Palanquée (buddy system) you have a divemaster or instructor and MAX 3 divers (around same level). 4 MAX divers

In France, it looks to be normal for recreational to dive in Air even at 40m, neither doubles or DIR system or DPV are used.

You have of course some club/dive who do technical diving who looks to not be the case here.

Dive table used : MN 90 Marine Nationale
http://www.aquadomia.com/wp-content/uploads/TablesMN90.pdf

You have 2 ways to be certified with FFESSM/CMAS or AMNP/CEDIP (and other french agencies).
- Going into the Certification Level -- TryDive -> Level 1 > Level 2 > Level 3 > Level 4(Divemaster)
- Going into the Qualification Level -- TryDive -> PE0>PE12m>PE20m then start "Autonomous" PA12m>(PE40m)>PA20m>(PE60m)>PA40m>PA60m
- Asking for crossover between Certif and Qualif level Level 2 = PE40m + PA20m

I will be honest it will be more cheaper and clearly safer (money value) to make a GUE Course from Rec 1 to 3 or Fundies (or TDI) Extra Nitrox Intro + Nitrox Qualified + any other mixed gas do cost a lot. At the end those are costing seriously most than the full GUE Courses (Of course I am not talking about Gear, just Training).

Now about pre-requi.
Level 3 at FFESSM
http://www.ffessm.fr/gestionenligne/manuel/09_Plongeur_niveau_3.pdf
- Must have Level 2 and previous pre-requi.
- Must have RIFAP (Rescue)
- Must have decent dives around 40m

If you go into the Qualification (PE/PA) system you can "manage" better your training. The more the better. And to be honest most of our Reliefs/Wrecks are less close to 40m anyway. Air gas are more used than Nitrox cause it can be really cheap at some local fill station. According to some divers I met, you can get used to Narcosis...

I have not made this cursus but you need around 100+ dives to get before Level 3 (Adv. Nitrox SHOULD also be required to certain instructors) as you can see there are no extra-satellite courses such as PADI if you want to dive at night you do take a supervised course (extra +10 €) and dive at night with a briefing.

 

[Patoux01]

Okay so I didn't post this here because I did not have time to do all the explanations...



@Kevrumbo , I believe that's the op (name matches, names of the instructor matches, ...). The gear they use is pretty much "standard" in France (and other countries around). Often single, 15l tanks, sometimes 12. Usually dual valves on the tanks. This kind of equipment is very often used up to 60m, which is the limit for air in France (If I'm not mistaken, FP has the same rules as France). Therefore, a 60m air dive on a single tank with a jacket bcd is not shocking there.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT WAS IN USE HERE.

From the little info I have, this is indeed a cave dive.

I'll translate rapidly what a cave instructor said about this accident

"If what we can read here and there is true, we can see a few disturbing details, don't you think? A group of 6 (or 2*3?), diving in a cave with no training and equipment, at large depth (apparently on air)... A long list of potential causes, it just needs a tiny issue to turn in a disaster!

As a reminder (and this event suggests once more that recreational divers should not go in caves "without knowing how it's done"), the 5 most common causes of deaths in cave diving are:

- lack of training (specific to cave diving)
- depth (narcosis, type of gas, deco, sufficient volumes, ...)
- gold line (proper line usage)
- gas management (1/3, 1/4, 1/5 etc)
- lack of redundant lights
=> There is no simple cave diving. If any of the requirements are not met, skip the dive.
The last data that can be surprising, and is very relevant to this event: in most cases of deaths in untrained cave divers, most hold a leadership or instructor cert in recreational level...

Again, from the info we have, the event seems to have all the reasons. I do not write this to blame anyone, but to remind everyone that overheads have specific issues."



I strongly differ with the view in the previous post.

Typical training goes
- Level 1 (supervised diving to 20m)
- Level 2 (supervised to 40m, unsupervised to 20)
- Level 3 (unsupervised up to 60m, not allowed deeper)
Everything on air. I have only once read about an instructor that required advanced nitrox for level 3. You also certainly do not require 100+ dives. There's N4 (dive leaders) with less than that.
I am unsure what you mean about GUE being cheaper, but it's just not how it goes.

The MN90 are not meant to be used, they are used for courses and exercices, but people plan their dive with their computer and use their computer.

Rescue skills are starting at level 2 (namely in-water assistance to get your buddy up), RIFAP is out of water emergency handling for scuba accidents.


Unfortunately, this is again the kind of regions where we will never hear what they actually planned, and therefore it will not teach anything to anyone...

 

[Darghu]

Sure I totally follow you. I read the thread on the french forum.

There are some divemasters / even instructors who do have less than 100 dives when they start their training (OK)
This is totally normal (French training) to use Air in 40-60m for the big majority of recreational divers.
But hopefully there might have some clubs/centers/instructors who offer Nitrox course around Level 2 or just right after Level 1 (before 40-60m depth) and some have filling Air / Nitrox same price.

As you said :
- Level 3 (unsupervised up to 60m, not allowed deeper) = PE-PA60
I am not sure if you get used to Narcosis If you go only with Air and let's assume you got only less than 100 dives (minimum requir. is less I agree) and if you got less than 10 dives latest 3 months.

Alright according to another french who made a dive there, there are a lot of silt who lead to 0 visibility at the entrance.

 

[wgw04024]

This just sounds like all kinds of bad. Wow.

 

[Kevrumbo]

This article states that Gilles' wife was also on the dive, but did not enter the 'cave' and that Gilles visited this 'cave' regularly. Les trois plongeurs décédés à Ahe étaient expérimentés
Very sad.

TUAMOTU - The three divers who lost their lives on Saturday morning in Ahe were qualified for deep diving. The palanque was framed by an instructor, and the Russian couple held levels 3 and 4 diving.

Ahe is under the shock of this drama that strikes the club of the atoll, Dive N'Co. Gilles Demée had set up this club with his wife Cathy. An experienced instructor, he accompanied Saturday a couple of thirty-year-old to the discovery of a submarine cave that frequented him regularly, to almost 60 meters of depth.

Three other divers, including Cathy, also descended to the entrance of the cave, but they never saw the instructor and the Russian couple come out. Also entering the cave would have put their own lives at risk to this depth.

Alexey Zykin was a brilliant professor of mathematics at the University of French Polynesia since 2013. At 32 years old, he was the head of the university's GAATI mathematics laboratory. His companion, Tatiana Makarova, had been a journalist; She was a doctoral student in management sciences and marketing at the UPF. Both spoke perfect French and English.

A diving instructor knew both Gilles Demée "not at all a burned-out head", and Alexey Zykin, for supervising an apnea course in which he participated. He testifies: "At 60 meters, the limit allowed, the narcosis is at its maximum, the ability to react is diminished, and in an anxiety-like environment like a cave, it is an aggravating factor. One of the divers was able to panic , And the others may have wanted to help him: in this case one loses very quickly all his air, it can quickly degenerate ".

The JRCC dispatched Dauphin Casa and helicopter by volunteer divers able to evolve at this depth. The bodies were found stuck in the cave on Saturday at 16:00, according to the High Commission.

.

 

[KevinNM]

I am unsure what you mean about GUE being cheaper, but it's just not how it goes.

Not sure myself, but it implies to me that recreational diving training in France is quite expensive compared to US recreational diving training, as GUE is not the low cost path here. But not completely sure that is intended.

 

[Patoux01]

Not sure myself, but it implies to me that recreational diving training in France is quite expensive compared to US recreational diving training, as GUE is not the low cost path here. But not completely sure that is intended.

It is not, that's why I don't know where he go that from. Diving in France is cheaper than any other place I've been, except OW courses in australia.

Learning to dive "the old fashioned way" through one of the french organizations is very cheap.

 

[Wingy]

I paid more for my CMAS Certs than PADI. OW courses in Australia are very expensive compared to the rest of the world.

The Deluxe course price of $675 includes:

- All of the above 2 Day Open Water Course plus an additional day on the boat at Rottnest Island on a date that suits you!


It would definitely have been air - standard in FP - particularly on the smaller islands within the atolls.

 

[Kevrumbo]

...

@Kevrumbo , I believe that's the op Dive N' Co (name matches, names of the instructor matches, ...). The gear they use is pretty much "standard" in France (and other countries around). Often single, 15l tanks, sometimes 12. Usually dual valves on the tanks. This kind of equipment is very often used up to 60m, which is the limit for air in France (If I'm not mistaken, FP has the same rules as France). Therefore, a 60m air dive on a single tank with a jacket bcd is not shocking there.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT WAS IN USE HERE.

From the little info I have, this is indeed a cave dive.

I'll translate rapidly what a cave instructor said about this accident

"If what we can read here and there is true, we can see a few disturbing details, don't you think? A group of 6 (or 2*3?), diving in a cave with no training and equipment, at large depth (apparently on air)... A long list of potential causes, it just needs a tiny issue to turn in a disaster!

As a reminder (and this event suggests once more that recreational divers should not go in caves "without knowing how it's done"), the 5 most common causes of deaths in cave diving are:

- lack of training (specific to cave diving)
- depth (narcosis, type of gas, deco, sufficient volumes, ...)
- gold line (proper line usage)
- gas management (1/3, 1/4, 1/5 etc)
- lack of redundant lights
=> There is no simple cave diving. If any of the requirements are not met, skip the dive.
The last data that can be surprising, and is very relevant to this event: in most cases of deaths in untrained cave divers, most hold a leadership or instructor cert in recreational level...

Again, from the info we have, the event seems to have all the reasons. I do not write this to blame anyone, but to remind everyone that overheads have specific issues."
...

So hypothetically, with 15L single cylinders at 230bar fill for each diver, roughly half should be reserved just to get an emergency air sharing pair to the surface from 60m. That means half is usable for getting to the entrance and the penetration of the cave, but with Rule of Thirds at 60m depth, that's only about five minutes penetration time before a turnaround pressure of 180bar SPG actual reading. (@Patoux01 : this scenario doesn't seem to be a very practical or proper overhead dive plan given the lack of enough redundant breathing gas volume along with appropriate bottom mix and deco gas considerations for 60m)

If a silt-out and/or a lost diver scenario occurred at that turnaround point, they could have had as much as 15min to find the diver and the exit assuming they kept calm and with their breathing rate under control. However in an out-of-air scenario along with a silt-out, it would probably only be 8 to 11min before exhausting their entire remaining air supply. The other group of three divers waiting at the entrance/exit opening would have been the last source for air-sharing with the egressing team, if only they could have found the way out of the cave. . .

Possible Precipitating Cause(s) of Accident:
Rule Out: Lost line (or no penetration reel line utilized at all); Lost Diver; Out-of-Air Diver; Narcosis; CO2 retention/Hypercapnia causing panic, incapacitation or loss of consciousness. Possible secondary Silt-Out zero visibility conditions complicating any of the above.

Preliminary Opinion: this should have been strictly an open water multi-level deep dive. Given the assumption of single tank backmount usage only, no more than five minutes bottom time is warranted to look at the entrance of the cave at 60m before starting a multi-level ascent profile as determined by dive computer and usable remaining breathing gas volume. It was either a naive but tragic unfortunate misadventure -or gross fatal mistake of judgment- to even attempt to enter the cave at that depth.