"Correct Weighting" Identified as #1 Needed Improvement in SCUBA Diving

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I'll wear a 7 mil full suit, boots and gloves with a 5 mil hooded vest. 10 lbs of lead on a belt and a steel 72. That means I'm +16 at the start of my dive past 50fsw and + 12 or so at the end which, granted, is probably a little light with that much rubber but I'm only going to be concerned with that if I'm doing a blue water safety stop or included in a dive plan is a bunch of swimming around at 20-30 fsw where I'm going to have to carry around a rock.
A line drop to 80-130fsw and a return to the anchor line at the end is a preferred plan with weighting myself as above.

so that i understand this - your no BCD dive weighting regime is conditional upon
a) a non blue water ascent
b) a short term dive at 20-30 fsw without a rock
c) a line drop and ascent with such

other than that would you use a BCD for a wreck or cave penetration ? or a dive of say 100fsw with a bottom time of 25 minutre or more

Im genuinely interested as i just can see how this works if you neutrally buoyant at safety stop how can you be hovering neutrally buoyant at 100fsw on one lung full with a compressed wet suit
 
blablabla me hero blabla.

So suddenly in only works on specific dives, because you're underweighted claiming to be a hero. So here's a few tips before you make some bs claims again:
- My average dive uses around 5kg (10# of gas), that's pretty much complete lung volume.
- The average 7mm wetsuit will lose around 5kg of buoyancy at depth, see above.

If you use no gas and no suit, help yourself. If you're underweighting yourself to the point you need to grab a rock to make your hero claims, well sorry, but you're not the special snowflake you think you are, it's just stupid.
 
So suddenly in only works on specific dives, because you're underweighted claiming to be a hero. So here's a few tips before you make some bs claims again:
- My average dive uses around 5kg (10# of gas), that's pretty much complete lung volume.
- The average 7mm wetsuit will lose around 5kg of buoyancy at depth, see above.

If you use no gas and no suit, help yourself. If you're underweighting yourself to the point you need to grab a rock to make your hero claims, well sorry, but you're not the special snowflake you think you are, it's just stupid.
Of course it seems like the answer to underweighting suggested within this thread is to grab a rock - great answer if you are doing a shore dive with a sandy bottom...:banghead:. I certainly don't have the lung capacity to counteract my W/S compressing at depth (4XL 7mm) as well as gas consumption.

Oh or the other option is to continuously be out of trim and kicking downwards to maintain depth.
 
If you need to put air in your BCD at any time during a dive (wetsuit) - you're overweighted. If you're uncomfortable making any dive without a BCD - you need to go back in your training and find out why, take corrective action and continue self training.

IMO, all OW students should be taught initially without BCD's - they're a crutch and a way to cover up improper training in weighting.

BCD's are a luxury item and ought to be thought of as such -
Well, not so much a luxury item as a specialty device. Not all dives can or should be conducted without a BC. However, I'm thinking that over half (maybe 75% to 80%) of all recreational dives are likely conducted under conditions where a BC is not actually needed. In that context a BC is not a luxury item, it is just in the way! But, that's only true if the diver knows how to competently plan and conduct a dive without the BC. This is where the weight management comes into play and where habitual BC use interferes with the learning process.

One of the things that must be done to dive without a BC is the diver must shed the pervasive fear of being under-weighted. Fundamentally, I think that is the main handicap of the BC. It teaches divers to fear being under-weighted but to not fear being over-weighted. In fact, when you get down to it, most divers actually want to be a bit over-weighted, just not by more than the BC can handle. This is the fundamental origin of the over-weighting problem.

If you think about it logically, being 5 pounds under-weighted is fundamentally similar to being being 5 pounds over-weighted. A little fin kicking will easily hold your station in either case. The only difference is that when under-weighted, the diver needs to put their head down. This is an initially unfamiliar body position for most people, but which all divers should be comfortable with, and to dive no BC it is a necessity. If I'm in a lot of neoprene diving without a BC, I will not even be able to get underwater unless I'm willing to put my head down and kick until deep enough to compress the suit.

Q: When diving without a BC, is it better to be a little too heavy and spend the whole dive kicking to stay up off the bottom (silting everything out in the process), or to be a little too light and spend the last 3 minutes kicking down to hold your safety stop?

A: When diving without a BC, it is better to error on the side of being a little light rather than being too heavy.

This is the exact opposite motivation inherited from BC diving. A BC teaches divers to fear being too light, whereas diving without a BC teaches divers to fear being too heavy.

Which fear is more valuable?

Well, I say the fear of being too heavy is the more productive fear, as you will be more likely to end up too light instead of too heavy. If you are too light, nothing really bad is going to happen. If you are way off, maybe you fail to complete a safety stop, or even fail to get down in the first place and have to get out and try again to get the weighting right. Either way, if doing no deco recreational diving, the diver is most likely going to be just fine.

If the diver fears being to light, they will habitually over-weight themselves to remain comfortably removed from that which they fear. What are the consequences of that? Not severe as long as there are no BC failures and the error is within the capabilities of the BC. For many divers, that means being 20 pounds overweight will normally not be a big problem and that condition can become a normalized deviant condition. After all, they have a 30 pound lift BC and are diving a 2mm shorty, so it has been working and they have done many dives without consequences. It doesn't become a problem until they have BC failure, or switch to a steel tank on a steel back plate, when unexpectedly, they are now in trouble and at risk for drowning. Too heavy is more dangerous than too light. Bottom line, there are far more serious consequences resulting from a diver fearing being too light than there are from a diver having a healthy fear of being too heavy in the water.

This is the lesson that modern training in a BC fails to imprint of students. I don't think that mid-water skills training will change that. While, I'm sure that it will ultimately be better than training while kneeling on the bottom, it will not modify what divers fear and try to avoid. They will still want to error on the side of being over-weighted, and I don't see a way to change that without learning to first dive without a BC.

How did I do this time? Did I adequately explain this without rubbing folks the wrong way?
 
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If you think about it logically, being 5 pounds under-weighted is fundamentally similar to being being 5 pounds over-weighted. A little fin kicking will easily hold your station in either case. The only difference is that when under-weighted, the diver needs to put their head down. This is an initially unfamiliar body position for most, that all divers should become comfortable with, and to dive no BC it is a necessity. If I'm in a lot of neoprene diving without a BC, I will not even be able to get underwater unless I'm willing to put my head down and kick.
I have a hard time trying to put this together with you trying to dive "as efficiently as possible".
If you're out of trim, you'll waste tons of energy on it. Your forward thrust varies with cos(trim). If you get trim to 0, ie horizontal, even if it comes at the cost of slightly more water resistance, my feelings are that you're winning on it.


Now I'm aware I fully missed your point about the BCD being required and overweighting vs underweighting, I'm just curious as to why you'd say "just go heads down" (or up, cos is symmetric) instead of "add a tiny little bit of gas somewhere to be neutral".
 
I have a hard time trying to put this together with you trying to dive "as efficiently as possible".
If you're out of trim, you'll waste tons of energy on it. Your forward thrust varies with cos(trim). If you get trim to 0, ie horizontal, even if it comes at the cost of slightly more water resistance, my feelings are that you're winning on it.

The goal is to be neutral and in trim. Here, I'm just referring to an example of what you can do if you are not neutral and adding or removing gas is not an option. Circumstance may be that you are too light and don't have any more air to remove from your BC for the safety stop. It's no different from being too heavy and not adding air, which is a situation we see all the time with divers pointed head toward the surface and kicking to not sink. Not that this is a good thing, I'm just saying that many divers do it all the time and don't even think about it, let alone fearing the situation. Sometimes, it doesn't seem a big enough deal to bother hitting the inflation button and they just kick out of instinct instead.

Why then is it such a bad thing to do that same same thing with the head pointed down for 3 minutes to do a safety stop if the diver was too light? Truth is, it isn't bad, but many divers fear being too light and over-weight themselves to compensate. They don't want to put their head down and being over-weighted insures they won't have to. They sink from the surface knees first and swim the whole dive with the knees or fins being the lowest point on their body.

Try to be neutral, but be okay dealing with a situation where you are too light, putting your head down and kicking if necessary. Better to be too light than to be too heavy. This is what diving without a BC teaches.
 
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This is the lesson that modern training in a BC fails to imprint of students.
Said no instructor ever. This is just silly.
Try to be neutral
Do or do not: there is no try! Neither my students or I need to 'get close'. We get perfectly neutral.
Which fear is more valuable?
Neither. Fear is counterproductive. There is no need for it.
However, I'm thinking that over half (maybe 75% to 80%) of all recreational dives are likely conducted under conditions where a BC is not actually needed.
gwn4n.jpg

More unsupported crap. Not one training agency agrees with you. They require 100% of all training dives to use a BCD. You keep beating this drum and wonder why the actual INSTRUCTORS say you're wrong. It's your life. If you want to risk it trying to prove that you're right: go for it. Reasonable divers will be sporting a BCD.
 
Said no instructor ever. This is just silly.

Do or do not: there is no try! Neither my students or I need to 'get close'. We get perfectly neutral.

Speaking of unsupported crap....
There is no such things as "perfectly neutral". You are either positive or negative, NEVER perfectly neutral.​
 
You are either positive or negative, NEVER perfectly neutral.
Don't be so negative, Dave! I'm positive I can get more neutral with a BC than without. IOW, it depends on how you define 'neutral'. Space isn't a perfect vacuum either, but it's still a lot less pressure than we have down here and I would still wear a space suit up there.

Without a BC, you're a lot less neutral than you can be with a BC. I can tune my buoyancy within an ounce or two and keep adjusting it to compensate for compressed wetsuits and loss of air in the tank.
 
Speaking of unsupported crap....
There is no such things as "perfectly neutral". You are either positive or negative, NEVER perfectly neutral.​
if you throw an object in the air and watch it fall down again is it zero gravity at any point?
 

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