UTD Ratio deco discussion

[boulderjohn]

What specifically is the new UTD policy you're referring to?

You adjusted the planned depth of the dive because it was at altitude. We were told there was no need to do that. If that is now UTD policy, it is new in comparison to what I was taught.

 

[boulderjohn]

Our experiences with ratio deco classes are very different. In my courses I was explicitly taught one can't use RD strictly the same when it comes to altitude diving. We didn't talk much about why, altitude diving was beyond the limits of the course.

In what course is diving at altitude taught?

 

[RayfromTX]

I've been following this thread from the first day and I just glanced at the title to see how it was worded in regards to adjusting deco times when diving at altitude and then it all came flooding back to me. I remember John getting attacked with a false accusation and how he calmly explained that he left UTD because they trained that no allowance was needed when diving at altitude.

Since then he has asked numerous times to be shown how the training now compensates for altitude but he has not gotten an answer. Mike has said that he compensates for it but has not confirmed that UTD trains that way nor has anyone else confirmed that. I don't have a dog in the fight but it seems a simple question. Why is it hard to answer?

This thread drift is common when people start threads that seem to be motivated by promotion of an agency, individual or business. The typical response will be tough questions from those that have not had a good experience with the entity being promoted and then the promoter has a few options. The least effective is the one most often taken and that is to become defensive and evasive and attack those asking the questions. I see it over and over and it can't possibly accomplish the goal of the original post. Good promoters make you feel good to have had the interaction. When you attack your questioners you miss the opportunity to appear confident and knowledgeable. It is often best to just back off and not dig a deeper hole.

By the way, can anyone tell me if UTD training includes making provisions for diving at altitude when using RD to establish a deco plan? I'm really interested now. It's like a mystery novel.

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

I had the opportunity to discuss the application of Ratio Deco at altitudes with a UTD instructor. She said that while she does not do altitude diving, the depths/pressure would have to be adjusted for the appropriate altitude. The answer that I was prepared to receive was "Altitude does not matter. Go and dive the same dive profile at altitude that you would do at sea level and you will be fine." This was the belief that scubaboard had installed in my head prior to me having that conversation with her. Thankfully in real world out there, this was not the reply I got. What is said on message boards is one thing and the reality out there is quite another. UTD instructors are all aware that depths have to be adjusted just like they need to be adjusted for computers or tables.

I do believe that initially when the agency was launched, there were some errors in their texts which implied that RD can be applied at altitudes without altitude adjustments and that is what started this debate. Those errors were corrected and today as you guys have seen it would be very hard to find a single UTD instructor who will say that altitude has not effect on dive profile.

When you guys ask a Tech-1 student to show you how they would do their dive at altitude, that is an unfair question because altitude diving is not part of Tech 1 just like it is not part of Open Water or Advanced Open Water or TDI-Decompression Procedures. I am TDI decompression certified and if you guys asked me how I would do my typical 150 ft dive at an altitude of 5000 feet, I will either need a computer or I would need a course in Altitude diving. This would never be taken to mean that TDI conned me in any way.

For the sake if making a fair comparison, let us keep the criteria consistent and not change it from agency to agency. Boulder John is a very accomplished technical diving instructor with whom I would love to take a tech course. I am sure that if I took PADI Tec-50 from him and you guys asked me to apply that training at 5000 feet, I would not be trained for it.

 

[boulderjohn]

I do believe that initially when the agency was launched, there were some errors in their texts which implied that RD can be applied at altitudes without altitude adjustments and that is what started this debate. Those errors were corrected and today as you guys have seen it would be very hard to find a single UTD instructor who will say that altitude has not effect on dive profile.

Errors in texts? Errors in texts?

I was there! I took my ratio Deco class from Andrew Georgitsis. He told me personally that altitude did not matter, and he told me that he knew it did not matter because he dived at Lake Tahoe and did not adjust. He told me that no one had ever been bent at altitude diving using RD, and all the people who got bent diving with RD at altitude in our group did not count because there had to be some other reason involved. This was a raging debate in our group because I did not believe it.

If you are saying that UTD's official philosophy THEN was NOT that RD did not have to be adjusted for altitude, then you are calling me a liar.

Is it different now? That is what I am trying to determine through this inquiry, but I have seen nothing official so far.

I am sure that if I took PADI Tec-50 from him and you guys asked me to apply that training at 5000 feet, I would not be trained for it.

Actually, it would not be discussed in Tec 50 because we would have covered it in Tec 40. You absolutely would have known all you need to know about making altitude adjustments by then.

 

[boulderjohn]

I had the opportunity to discuss the application of Ratio Deco at altitudes with a UTD instructor. She said that while she does not do altitude diving, the depths/pressure would have to be adjusted for the appropriate altitude. The answer that I was prepared to receive was "Altitude does not matter. Go and dive the same dive profile at altitude that you would do at sea level and you will be fine." This was the belief that scubaboard had installed in my head prior to me having that conversation with her. Thankfully in real world out there, this was not the reply I got. What is said on message boards is one thing and the reality out there is quite another. UTD instructors are all aware that depths have to be adjusted just like they need to be adjusted for com

She told you the depths and pressures would have to be adjusted for altitude.

Great! HOW will they be adjusted?

I asked that question many pages ago. If UTD divers were using computers and/or desktop software programs, it would be a really simple matter. You just enter the altitude information, and you get a different profile. Eezy-Peezy. I showed how that is done several pages ago.

But unless things have changed significantly since my day, UTD divers do not use computers or desktop software to plan their dives. When I took Ratio Deco, part of the class emphasized that ALL desktop software programs are wrong. We could only use ratio Deco for dive planning. We were also never allowed to use computers for our diving, unless they were in gauge mode. Is all that still true?

If so, can anyone tell me HOW Ratio Deco is adjusted for altitude? If a UTD diver goes to altitude, how does he or she know how to do the dive?

As for individual instructors telling you what they believe....

When I was in the middle of these debates with UTD, I also conferred with Jarrod Jablonski, owner of GUE. He told me GUE's official stance on altitude and Ratio Deco was that RD could NOT be used at altitude without adjustment, and they did not know how to adjust it. GUE's RD was designed to create the same profile a specific desktop software program (DecoPlanner) would for a specific range of depths and a specific set of gases at sea level. It could only be used within those limits. He said altitude definitely makes a difference. That was GUE's official stance when we talked. In stark contrast, the only GUE instructor I know personally teaches his students that altitude does not matter for decompression planning, and he says Ratio Deco can be used at altitude.

...so there can be a difference between what an individual instructor says and what the agency teaches. I would like to know what the agency teaches.

 

[decompression]

Unfortunately John, I don't think those that have posted have the answer you are seeking, including myself. If you are genuinely interested in what has changed in RD since (2008?) to now wrt altitude a call or email to UTD directly will give you the answer you seek. I'm just a foundational instructor with UTD and my tech education is with ANDI and TDI.

I know this issue is close to your heart and you are quick to offer your experience every time anything with UTD is posted. I'm hoping that things have changed since then (altitude planning) regardless of the many variables in decompression diving. I've yet to hear of any incidents with RD other than your own at sea level or altitude so that could be a positive.

I do think my speculation, inkeeping with industry standards, of adding depth for adjustment at altitude seem to follow Buhlmann. I can still shape my S curve and O2 so I might cut some more profiles and see how close I can get then.

When I did that with RD 1.0 there were some significant variances which look like they've been addressed with 2.0.

If I every make it to Colorado, I'd love to go on a dive with you and the Helium is on me.

 

[mikeny9]

I remember John getting attacked with a false accusation and how he calmly explained that he left UTD because they trained that no allowance was needed when diving at altitude.

I wasn't attacking him, I thought he was mis-representing how he left UTD. I confused him with someone else, and for that I'm sorry. It was never meant as a personal attack.

Since then he has asked numerous times to be shown how the training now compensates for altitude but he has not gotten an answer. Mike has said that he compensates for it but has not confirmed that UTD trains that way nor has anyone else confirmed that. I don't have a dog in the fight but it seems a simple question. Why is it hard to answer?

UTD does not teach altitude diving in any class that I know of. It's not hard to answer, I've answered it 6 times now I think?

The least effective is the one most often taken and that is to become defensive and evasive and attack those asking the questions. I see it over and over and it can't possibly accomplish the goal of the original post. Good promoters make you feel good to have had the interaction. When you attack your questioners you miss the opportunity to appear confident and knowledgeable. It is often best to just back off and not dig a deeper hole.

I think I've done the opposite of what you're describing. I've been pretty forward with profiles that I am trained to dive with. I've asked numerous times to compare a profile within my training limits but conveniently John and everyone else keeps insisting we do the profile specifically for 160+ at 6000 ft. Why is that? I've posted a few profiles I would be comfortable with at altitude that were based on RD and depth adjusted and asked if they would be acceptable for the given altitude we are talking about. I've yet to receive a response. John, are the profiles I posted for 6000 ft elevation acceptable?

By the way, can anyone tell me if UTD training includes making provisions for diving at altitude when using RD to establish a deco plan? I'm really interested now. It's like a mystery novel.

No, as I described above.

Errors in texts? Errors in texts?

I was there! I took my ratio Deco class from Andrew Georgitsis. He told me personally that altitude did not matter, and he told me that he knew it did not matter because he dived at Lake Tahoe and did not adjust. He told me that no one had ever been bent at altitude diving using RD, and all the people who got bent diving with RD at altitude in our group did not count because there had to be some other reason involved. This was a raging debate in our group because I did not believe it.

If you are saying that UTD's official philosophy THEN was NOT that RD did not have to be adjusted for altitude, then you are calling me a liar.

I'm definitely not calling you a liar, but in no course all the way up through Tech 1, RD, and RD 2.0, along with all the dives I've done with RD, have I ever heard that one can use the same RD plan for altitude as you do at sea level.

What year was this anyway that you took this class? It might give some context.

Perhaps AG/UTD changed their approach or perhaps you misunderstood AG or the material, he's South African after all; hard to understand sometimes . I don't know if either of those are true, AG doesn't post on SB and he's the only one that'd be able to answer for himself. The important part is no where in my UTD experience have I ever learned, read, or been told one can use RD for all altitudes.

If someone told me that I would make just a big of a stink about it as you say you did in your class. I mean, I missing something? It seems really straight forward that one can't use the same profile they'd execute at sea level if you do the same dive at 6000 ft of elevation.

She told you the depths and pressures would have to be adjusted for altitude.

Great! HOW will they be adjusted?

I asked that question many pages ago. If UTD divers were using computers and/or desktop software programs, it would be a really simple matter. You just enter the altitude information, and you get a different profile. Eezy-Peezy. I showed how that is done several pages ago.

Why not just depth adjust like I did and continue using RD?

Can anyone tell me HOW Ratio Deco is adjusted for altitude?

It's not covered by any class. A "thinking diver" might be able to at least know you can't dive the same profile at altitude as you do at sea level. I've posted what I would do, and instead of a healthy discussion I've only gotten ridiculed about my training limits and still received no response about the profile I posted.

I also conferred with Jarrod Jablonski, owner of GUE. He told me GUE's official stance on altitude and Ratio Deco was that RD could NOT be used at altitude without adjustment

Seems like common sense to me.

In stark contrast, the only GUE instructor I know personally teaches his students that altitude does not matter for decompression planning, and he says Ratio Deco can be used at altitude.

Who? Just so I know who not to take classes from...

 

[Lorenzoid]

Almost 20 pages to establish that neither UTD nor GUE currently teaches altitude diving using RD.

 

[boulderjohn]

UTD does not teach altitude diving in any class that I know of. It's not hard to answer, I've answered it 6 times now I think?

No, you never said that UTD does not teach altitude adjustment in any of its classes. If that is so, that answers one question.

You did say that you personally would make some adjustments to Ratio Deco, but it seems to me you would make those adjustments based on your own guesswork as to what would be the right thing to do, because UTD does not offer any official guidance for this. Is that correct?

So, as I understand it, you are certified by UTD to dive to 150 feet at sea level, but UTD is silent as to what that means at altitude. If you were visiting in the Rocky Mountain region and were invited to join us at Rock Lake in Santa Rosa, NM, and do a dve to 150 feet, you could not do it according to your understanding of how to make an adjustment. Is that correct?