Pony as regular equipment for all dives?

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You overlooked, to my way of thinking, the number one reason why people have high air consumption:

Inexperience.

Naturally inexperience pairs well with the elements you mentioned, and others. Learning doesn't end when you get your Open Water certification and in my experience SAC rates usually drop from about 20-23 liters/min (.7 to .8cf) to about 15 liters/min (.5cf) in the first 30-50 dives or so. Some of this has to do with perfecting skills like neutral buoyancy and trim but some of it also has to do with simply being able to relax your body. ....


All true, but - of course - we need to point out that experience alone might not address the issues. Simply doing many more dives (gaining experience) whilst replicating the same "mistakes" will not improve things. Lots more diving generally means being more comfortable and confident in the water, but improving the core elements generally means some form of training or mentoring.
 
Yeah, what I think you're saying is that perfecting bad habits is a bad thing.

Fully agree there. In fact, it can bite you twice because first you are not perfecting the ideal way of doing something and secondly, just like a dog that needs to "unlearn" a conditioned behaviour, late learning takes more time.

R..
 
More opportunities to kill yourself. Another way to look at it.

Yep, Were all gonna die sometime. DO WHAT YOU DIG !!
 
I don't think there is any agreed definition of "pony"

When discussing alternate air sources and configurations, back when the concept of an safety second as a normal gear configuration was new. PADI Divers Manual rev1984. p58:

A redundant system,usually smaller than the primary system, consists of a totally separate air supply and demand regulator. Frequently a small scuba tank with a standard regulator is attached to the side of the primary scuba unit and is referred to as a "Pony Bottle".

There is a history of the Pony Bottle being an emergency alternate air supply, regardless of size.


Bob
 
When discussing alternate air sources and configurations, back when the concept of an safety second as a normal gear configuration was new. PADI Divers Manual rev1984. p58:

A redundant system,usually smaller than the primary system, consists of a totally separate air supply and demand regulator. Frequently a small scuba tank with a standard regulator is attached to the side of the primary scuba unit and is referred to as a "Pony Bottle".

There is a history of the Pony Bottle being an emergency alternate air supply, regardless of size.


Bob

A separate tank and reg is IMHO currently known as a bailout. This term really came mainstream with the advent of rebreathers which required an open circuit bailout. The term "pony" I have always taken to be a US phrase derived from "pony engine" (in English a "donkey" engine) - a small engine used to start a bigger one.

I think it is important to define what is being discussed if you are to have a benefit from the discussion. So, I query what "pony tank" means to the person using the term. Here in the UK the vast majority of divers would understand it to be a back mounted tank of about 3L (6CF) capacity. There is no "agreed" rigging and regulator configuration. Hence you can dive with a number of pony equipped buddies all of whom will have different regulator set ups and their own personal idea about what to do in an OOG situation. Their own theories about AAS and what to donate, how to deal with a regulator being taken by a panicked diver and so on.

Like many people I have an issue with this particular arrangement, not an issue with the idea or practice of using a bailout. Sadly this often leads to an argument about pony tanks (a popular argument on the Internet it seems) where either side is actually arguing about something different.

A bailout tank or redundant supply is pretty much a mandatory item for solo diving. But when solo there is only the diver him or herself and the bailout is for the diver should the primary gas source fail. Whatever regulator configuration you use is your own choice and will be - by definition - the one you prefer. The OP opens the subject of routine use of a bailout for buddy diving. This adds the dimension of how you interact with your buddy if there is an OOG incident. At the least a very thorough pre-dive briefing is required and the two divers must agree the procedure and commit to it before the dive takes place. This is not a practice I witness very often. Equally both divers must be sufficiently able that in an OOG situation they have the discipline to follow the agreed procedure and commence breathing from the appropriate regulator and begin the ascent. This is an assumption whereas the buddy diver will have been trained to make an ascent with an octopus during their basic training.

Of the two divers the one equipped with a bailout has the least motivation to maintain buddy contact. S/he is self reliant, a solo diver. The buddy must either trust this person or take the logical step of equipping themselves with a bailout as well. Eventually this will lead to everyone being bailout equipped and everyone "diving solo".

Again and again I read that the "instabuddy" is the issue. Quite reasonably people say they will not trust their life to a person they have just met. (I assume these people never fly an airplane, ride a train or take a bus?) My take on that is simple - the guy with the pony is a solo diver (as am I) and I am not diving with them. I'm just fine on my own thanks.
 
Here in the UK the vast majority of divers would understand it to be a back mounted tank of about 3L (6CF) capacity.

There is a difference between the UK and US in usage, and origin of terminology. Take octopus in reference to scuba, initially it was used to denote the reg with a second stage, SPG, and inflator because it looked like one as opposed to the usual first and one second, which was used up to that point. Now an octopus means a second second stage, go figure.

This is not a practice I witness very often. Equally both divers must be sufficiently able that in an OOG situation they have the discipline to follow the agreed procedure and commence breathing from the appropriate regulator and begin the ascent. This is an assumption whereas the buddy diver will have been trained to make an ascent with an octopus during their basic training.

The quote I gave was from 1884, and in 1980, when I finally got a c-card using the earlier version, the use of a safe second (octopus) was not used by many. At that time the trained in actual buddy breathing, one second with two divers. The manual, in that paragraph or so, was giving several solutions how to have a redundant second stage at that point in time.

My take on that is simple - the guy with the pony is a solo diver (as am I) and I am not diving with them.

I don't understand why a diver with a pony is a solo diver, although I understand why a solo diver may choose to carry one. In addition, the PADI manual never even hinted that any pony configuration could be used for solo diving, as their policy completely forbade solo.


Bob
 
Okay, I have read through a lot of this thread, and have some opinions. Realize that I have been solo diving for something like forty years.

I do not dive a pony or "bailout" bottle. My redundant air supply is the surface, as I usually dive in Oregon rivers. My max depTh is about 24 feet (7 meters). I dive where there are a number on entanglement potentials from fishing line, and always carry a sharp knife on my right leg. If I want more air, I dive my double steel 45s. I sometimes dive vintage double hole regulators, most often with a J-valve (sometimes with a restrictor reserve, such as the Scubair regulator from Healthways). I do not like a second bottle unless it is doubles, as there is additional Iona's drag and that itself causes problems in a river current. Here is an explanation of that drag:
Energetics of underwater swimming with SCUBA. - Abstract - Europe PMC

I do sometimes dive an octopus with some of my double hose regulators (Trieste II, Mossback Mk 3, Sportsways Hydro-Twin). I also have the option of diving a redundant regulator with my twin 45s, equipped with a Sherwood manifold with twin posts.

SeaRat
 
Bob DBF:
I don't understand why a diver with a pony is a solo diver, although I understand why a solo diver may choose to carry one. In addition, the PADI manual never even hinted that any pony configuration could be used for solo diving, as their policy completely forbade solo.

OK I should have expanded my post a little - a diver with a pony is equipped as a solo diver. Without knowing any more about them (i.e. I just met the guy on the boat) I am going to assume they are a solo diver, because I am also someone that can and does dive solo. I don't want to dive with this person because I don't want to return to the surface half way through my enjoyable dive when they have lost contact with me. I will make my dive on my own (assuming no one else is available and I am using doubles) and let the "solo" diver dive on their own too.

I do know people that use a pony and are good divers that follow and believe in the buddy system. I would buddy up with them. But the point is I know them personally. In the bar after the dive I will argue about their choice of equipment and why I don't agree with them - friends can do that after all can't we? But the pony-equipped instabuddy on the boat is not diving with me. Period.


Okay, I have read through a lot of this thread, and have some opinions. Realize that I have been solo diving for something like forty years.

Nothing wrong with that - you are in the solo forum :wink:
 
Here is one of my solo dives.


Enjoy,

SeaRat
 
Without knowing any more about them (i.e. I just met the guy on the boat) I am going to assume they are a solo diver, because I am also someone that can and does dive solo. I don't want to dive with this person because I don't want to return to the surface half way through my enjoyable dive when they have lost contact with me.

I usually just ask, I dive solo, sometimes with a pony and sometimes without, but when I buddy with someone I am serious about it, I just discuss my expectations before the dive, so far I have not been disappointed. Back when I assumed and dove I had more issues.


Bob
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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