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So, in general, forget the long hose protocol if I am in immediate need of something to breathe with a CCR diver as my only option?
Rebreathers (CCR) What Recreational divers need to know
- Thread starter bowlofpetunias
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Speaking in a recreational context, yes.
The only people who are (generally) adopting a standardised gas share protocol for mixed teams are the DIR agencies.
As far as Type-R CCR diving is concerned, there is basically RAID and PADI. RAID teaches for Level 1 rebreather that a side slung alternate air source (SSAA) is highly recommended for all dives but not strictly required for dives shallower than 18m. In those cases, an octopus on the diluent cylinder is mandatory.
If that is the case, then there is the remains of a 3L diluent cylinder to get the OOG diver to the surface. Not a great option.
If on the other hand, you are diving with Type-T rebreather divers, then "taking" any reg is a bad idea since it is likely that they will have unbreathable gases on them. In this case, giving an OOG signal SHOULD result in them passing you their current bailout reg, whether that is on a long hose or off a stage tank. The whole "donate whats in your mouth" paradigm does not work with rebreathers.
Bear in mind, generally the diver has planned for a bailout to get them to a depth where they can get onto a deco bottle, so often the setup is not really designed for redundancy for a team mate. (The CCR diver is carrying their own redundancy)
Since this mindset is for self-redundancy, the setup may not be rigged for quick donation to another diver. As a rec OC diver, I would not be going to any CCR diver for gas as a first resort, unless they are part of my team and we have briefed accordingly.
In my own case, I have a bailout with a bright yellow second stage on it for OC divers, and a QD plumbed into my BOV for own use. When diving with ONLY CCR divers, I will take off the second stage, becoming basically a group of solo divers as far as gas management is concerned.
The only people who are (generally) adopting a standardised gas share protocol for mixed teams are the DIR agencies.
As far as Type-R CCR diving is concerned, there is basically RAID and PADI. RAID teaches for Level 1 rebreather that a side slung alternate air source (SSAA) is highly recommended for all dives but not strictly required for dives shallower than 18m. In those cases, an octopus on the diluent cylinder is mandatory.
If that is the case, then there is the remains of a 3L diluent cylinder to get the OOG diver to the surface. Not a great option.
If on the other hand, you are diving with Type-T rebreather divers, then "taking" any reg is a bad idea since it is likely that they will have unbreathable gases on them. In this case, giving an OOG signal SHOULD result in them passing you their current bailout reg, whether that is on a long hose or off a stage tank. The whole "donate whats in your mouth" paradigm does not work with rebreathers.
Bear in mind, generally the diver has planned for a bailout to get them to a depth where they can get onto a deco bottle, so often the setup is not really designed for redundancy for a team mate. (The CCR diver is carrying their own redundancy)
Since this mindset is for self-redundancy, the setup may not be rigged for quick donation to another diver. As a rec OC diver, I would not be going to any CCR diver for gas as a first resort, unless they are part of my team and we have briefed accordingly.
In my own case, I have a bailout with a bright yellow second stage on it for OC divers, and a QD plumbed into my BOV for own use. When diving with ONLY CCR divers, I will take off the second stage, becoming basically a group of solo divers as far as gas management is concerned.
OP
Wow this is a real eye opener. OW and AOW trained divers really need to be told this stuff! @boulderjohn and @Diver0001 can you tell us what information if any is supposed to be given to students about this in dive courses.
With the number of recreational divers going to Rebreathers do you know if any of the training agencies are looking to include more information about this for the sake of OOA emergencies. I know a lot of our very busy local sites have both very newly certified divers and CCR divers in the water..
With the number of recreational divers going to Rebreathers do you know if any of the training agencies are looking to include more information about this for the sake of OOA emergencies. I know a lot of our very busy local sites have both very newly certified divers and CCR divers in the water..
RAID OC courses all have CCR info in them, I don't know if other agencies have put anything in.
My take is it's easier to teach the CCR diver to brief and otherwise deal with OC diver considerations than vice versa
My take is it's easier to teach the CCR diver to brief and otherwise deal with OC diver considerations than vice versa
OP
The. problem with that is you have to rely on the rebreather diver doing so. I don't think from my own experience that is a safe approach We talk about being self sufficient and responsible to make choices for our own safety.
Neither I nor my hubby knew that the CCR diver were diving with couldn't share air. Had I known that I would have made different choices. We did not know to look for a slung cylinder.. such a simple thing. It is not hard to cover that little bit of info in an OW course.
Neither I nor my hubby knew that the CCR diver were diving with couldn't share air. Had I known that I would have made different choices. We did not know to look for a slung cylinder.. such a simple thing. It is not hard to cover that little bit of info in an OW course.
Aside from the things already covered here (which has some excellent advice so far), I also tell them that with a casual glance it's very difficult for them to tell if I'm ok or not. In light of that fact, diving in a mixed team, I'll twiddle my fingers, flex my hands, etc. I will always be doing SOMETHING with my hands so that it's a visual indicator that I'm ok and breathing. If they see me not moving, and I don't move for a few seconds, something could be very wrong, in which case give me a clear, firm, OK sign. If I don't respond with a clear, firm OK sign immediately in response, flip my BOV and we go up. Not questions asked. I don't care if they do it on accident because they perceive me in danger, I'd rather them be a little too proactive than watch me pass out or tox out. We can sort it out on the way up if it's an accidental response.
With attentive buddies it's an excellent practice. Given a few small things to look for, it can be very safe. With buddies that I can't count on to be attentive enough to take the minimal amount of awareness to see me cracking my knuckles, they're not buddies I want to be diving with when there's a loop involved. Sometimes it's best just to bite the bullet and dive OC.
With attentive buddies it's an excellent practice. Given a few small things to look for, it can be very safe. With buddies that I can't count on to be attentive enough to take the minimal amount of awareness to see me cracking my knuckles, they're not buddies I want to be diving with when there's a loop involved. Sometimes it's best just to bite the bullet and dive OC.
I don't think that's such a great idea... as you can tell, there are wide variety of CCR gear configurations (not to mention the occasional SCR!). It is MUCH less standardized than OC. CCR divers are tinkerers, and many even have DIY rigs. My own rebreather (the JJ) has been modified by GUE to be more like a Hogarthian rig with all of the gas back mounted, including two extra tanks, de-inverted valves and a manifold.
So rather than trying to get OC divers struggling with the basics to learn this wide range of information when it might not be used for years if ever, it's better to just have any CCR diver in a mixed team simply go over the specifics of his or her unit, including bailout, BOVs, ADVs, etc... If you are actually committing to diving together, I don't think that's a big expectation.
I think that it's pretty unlikely that you will see a mixed team with (1) a CCR diver with hypoxic dil and multiple bailout tanks, and (2) a recreational OC diver with no technical training or understanding of rebreathers. This discussion would be more for simpler dives.
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Great thread! I've wondered about some of this stuff.
OP
Yes.. bold and color added to your quote. That is what I meant not an education on rebreathers in any detail. The primary thing I think needs to be introduced to OW diver training is the knowledge that we should not expect an Rebreather diver to be able to share air in the way we do.The information that we need to look for a slung cylinder. To insist on a safety talk about the equipment. OW especially new divers may be too intimidated to call out the CCR diver they may feel is miles above them in dive skill and experience.
I would have considered myself a fairly experienced diver. I am fairly assertive when I feel I need to be but it wasn't until much later that I realized the risks I had taken due to lack of knowledge diving with a CCR buddy who didn't tell me this stuff.
Ultimately you have to look at the type of dive you're doing, the comfort level of your buddies, and their aptitude at dealing with non-conventional problem solving. In most cases it's not worth it anyway, so it's not worth the time taken to educate them (and probably quite often give them a serious stressor) for a simple recreational dive.
There are absolutely people I will dive CCR while they dive OC in a recreational setting. I'd have absolutely zero qualms about strapping on a rebreather while Rainpilot dives OC, and I'm sure he'd feel the same way. There are even more buddies who I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that with. Doesn't mean I won't dive with them, I'd just be far more likely to do a "solo" dive with a group of them where they were all buddy pairs and I was the odd man out, and I would dive very conservatively when doing so.
That all being said, if I'm diving with friends, it's because I want to enjoy diving with my friends. There isn't a whole lot of use burning 8 hours worth of lime and O2, plus everything involved before and after, when they're going to be limited to an hour on an AL80. Why spend an hour before, an hour after, and deal with everything else involved in a CCR dive when you can slap on the same AL80, do the same dives, and not have to deal with everything else.
There are absolutely people I will dive CCR while they dive OC in a recreational setting. I'd have absolutely zero qualms about strapping on a rebreather while Rainpilot dives OC, and I'm sure he'd feel the same way. There are even more buddies who I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that with. Doesn't mean I won't dive with them, I'd just be far more likely to do a "solo" dive with a group of them where they were all buddy pairs and I was the odd man out, and I would dive very conservatively when doing so.
That all being said, if I'm diving with friends, it's because I want to enjoy diving with my friends. There isn't a whole lot of use burning 8 hours worth of lime and O2, plus everything involved before and after, when they're going to be limited to an hour on an AL80. Why spend an hour before, an hour after, and deal with everything else involved in a CCR dive when you can slap on the same AL80, do the same dives, and not have to deal with everything else.
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