Roadmap to Wreck, Cave, multiple tanks

[kensuf]

If you want to do both wreck and cave, I'd say start with the cave route. For some reason, most charter boats will let cave divers do wreck dives without wreck specific training, but most landowners won't let wreck divers do cave dives without cave specific training.

I don't want to turn this into a debate about cave diving -vs- wreck diving; they are both demanding environments in their own way. Logistically, wreck diving is more challenging than the average recreational cave dive, but cave diving will introduce you to more complex navigation / further penetrations / etc.

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

Here is the most logical progression:

Step 1: PSAI Twin Tanks speciality OR UTD Essentials of Tec OR GUE Fundies
Step 2: If you take PSAI Twin Tanks then PSAI Sport Wreck. If you take UTD then Overhead Protocols
Step 3: If you take PSAI, then PSAI Cave courses from Edd or Trace. If you go UTD then Wreck 1 followed by Cave 1 and Cave 2. If you take GUE then GUE Cave 1 and Cave 2.

All the best.

 

[blac86]

Oh and twinsets just ask your local tec instructor for an orientation.

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

How my tec road map went (all courses tdi ( except apprentice cave) because the tdi instructor near me is awesome, not because I favor tdi over any other agency)

Advanced Nitrox - Intro to Cave - NSSCDS Apprentice Cave - Deco Procedures - Extended Range - Full Cave - Trimix - Advanced Trimix


Wreck divers will harp on all day that "cave training isn't wreck training" but that's because they haven't had cave training. I've talked go a ton of advanced wreck divers and instructors, and none of them can pinpoint anything they offer that isn't covered in full cave. They just want to feel special. Philosophically they are the same, wreck penetration requires at least some familiarity with diving in currents.

Treat any penetration on a wreck as seriously as any penetration into a cave and you'll be fine. Most cave divers that have problems on wrecks are because they didn't respect the dive and didn't run reels or map their way in and out.

I was reading Shadow Divers and the two cave divers who died in the submarine dive (Rouses) died in a death most cave divers could not imagine. The book shelf fell on one of them! Yup. He was pulling the map from under the submarine shelf and that thing just came down on him. I would love to do a cave course that covers falling furniture. It would reduce training costs for two of my courses into one course but these tend to be two totally different environment at least from my limited experience.

More experienced divers may be able to comment more but this may not be the right forum for it. Id love to see more discussion on this though.

 

[boulderjohn]

Where do you live?

Home is in the US, but I am spending a few years in Peru.

I was hoping for a little more information. You said you don't have access to technical training in your area. the availability of tech training does very dramatically by location, and I was hoping to be able to steer you to some choices.

 

[wKkaY]

I'm in a similar position to you in aspiring to go tech.

2013 - Ow/aow
2014 - Fundies

2016 - Moved to Sydney and joined an active local diving community. For me this was a pivotal moment as I finally had to execute my own dives without a guide, as opposed to tropical diving where we were mollycoddled. Rescue course.

2017 - Drysuit (informally mentored)

From here I'm looking at doing a deep cavern course with CDAA (the aussie cave diving association) which teaches doubles and its drills, and line protocols. Also exposes me to a new environment (freshwater and caverns). It might be lofty but I'm hoping that this course will give me as much development as fundies did.

Once I have the training in doubles I'll try to find opportunities to do some fun dives and practice sessions with it. When I'm comfortable in the setup I'll decide to go for my first tech course.

I've done two big wreck trips so far, one to Coron (2015) and another to Chuuk (2017), and found that I like that sort of thing. I could see how far I've progressed as a diver, in my second trip. I was a lot more aware of the wreck features, structure, and navigation, and we would usually spend the second half of the dive exploring it on our own. The first half was a trust-me wreck-through of the cool stuff, then the guide takes off as he's on air and a suunto. The goal I've set from here is either to do deco dives to see deeper features, or to do some proper penetration. And that's the context around which my roadmap is laid out

 

[blac86]

I was reading Shadow Divers and the two cave divers who died in the submarine dive (Rouses) died in a death most cave divers could not imagine. The book shelf fell on one of them! Yup. He was pulling the map from under the submarine shelf and that thing just came down on him. I would love to do a cave course that covers falling furniture. It would reduce training costs for two of my courses into one course but these tend to be two totally different environment at least from my limited experience.

More experienced divers may be able to comment more but this may not be the right forum for it. Id love to see more discussion on this though.

Bad SA isn't a training problem

 

[RyanT]

Wreck divers will harp on all day that "cave training isn't wreck training" but that's because they haven't had cave training. I've talked go a ton of advanced wreck divers and instructors, and none of them can pinpoint anything they offer that isn't covered in full cave. They just want to feel special. Philosophically they are the same, wreck penetration requires at least some familiarity with diving in currents.

I'm not a cave diver, but my wreck diving tech instructor encouraged me to a take a cave course. He said there is a lot to be learned from those guys.

 

[boulderjohn]

If you read Shadow Divers about the story of Chris and Chrissie Rouse, you might want to read The Last Dive, which goes into that fatality in much greater detail. it also goes into the difference between the cave and wreck diving--at least as it was then.

The two traditions evolved differently with different divers, and they used different approaches. The big difference then was the system for avoiding getting lost. Cave divers developed the system of always having a continuous guideline to the surface. Wreck divers used a system called "progressive penetration"--gradually go deeper and deeper into the wreck over a series of dives so that you get to know it. That difference has since faded away--most wreck diving courses teach the continuous guideline system now. I have not heard anyone preach progressive penetration in a long time.

Chris and Chrissie came from a cave diving tradition, and they ran line when they penetrated a wreck. In contrast, if you ever see the video John Chatterton made of himself diving that Uboat, you will see that he did not run line. Chrissie ran line into the wreck on the fatal dive, when the shelving fell in on him. His father had stayed outside the wreck because of the lack of room, and he was able to free him, but in doing so, he lost contact with the line, and they evidently were unable to find it again. They apparently got lost and came out the wrong hole.

What killed them, though, was narcosis.

Chris had had some financial setbacks, and he could not afford helium for the trip. They were diving air at about 230 feet. chrissie was narced out of his mind. He never knew that a shelving unit had fallen on him. He thought a sea monster had attacked him. When they finally got out of the wreck, they did not realize they had come out the wrong hole. they had staged their decompression bottles by their entry point, and when they come out and didn't see them, they thought someone had stolen them. They did have some gas, but despite that, they opted to head for the surface. Bernie Chowdhury (author of The Last Dive) Thinks it was because they knew he had survived a similar problem. Much of this is supposition. Chris died on the surface. Chrissie made it to the hospital, but he was pretty incoherent the whole time.

 

[boulderjohn]

As a followup to the last post, I want to go into the big difference between the PADI cavern diving course and the PADI wreck diving course, and in doing so identify a weakness in the wreck course.

The cavern course demands that the instructor be a full cave diver, and full cave divers spend a lot of time learning how to lay line properly. The course demands that students really learn how to lay line, and the instructor should know how to do it well. In the wreck diving course, laying line is emphasized as being essential to penetrating a wreck, but there is not a lot of practice required in doing it. In addition, the instructor does not have to have any special training to teach it. I suspect it MIGHT be a holdover from the progressive penetration days.

But that is also a key difference between caverns (or caves) and wrecks. In a cavern or cave, you will almost always exit at the same point you entered. laying line is thus always appropriate. You lay it down going in, and you wind it back up going out. In a wreck, that is very often not true. Most wreck "penetrations" are very different--you enter at one point and exit another. Laying line would not be appropriate on such a dive. Sometimes you are only going a few feet. Sometimes you are going farther, with differing levels of complexity. I do a lot of wreck diving each year, and I rarely need to lay line. I almost always enter an area where I know I have a safe exit awaiting me somewhere else. I am also a cave diver, and I always have line leading me to the surface. Those are two different situations calling for two different approaches.