Tipping

[FuAn]

That is total crap since it puts a tv in with housing which also contains rent and broadband. Living in UK is going to put the price of electronics higher by 40% but you don't buy a tv every month unlike rent which is 72% more expensive in miami. Will run some maths on it now

Does not matter as its not about absolute costs but cost deviations in % if i have to pay higher prices for certain commodities there is a cost of living difference no matter how often you buy them. And even then a deviation +-10% I would be tempted to say you can have similar cost of living as you can influence by own behavior and it also vastly depends on your family situation. I'd say cost of living between US and UK is comparable.

 

[rjgiddings]

Totally depends on the scenario. If I booked a local charter - and then filled the captains boat with divers- I usually get a complimentary couple of dives. Since the captain is getting paid by the group of divers that I brought him, we both see it as a win-win. The staff on the boat are usually DM's - and they get paid mostly in tips. I will give them $ 20.00 a piece, if it's a two or three tank dive. They hustle pretty good, take our fins so we can climb up the ladder, keep our stuff clear of the isles, etc. More than happy to tip them.

 

[DanielRJones]

Does not matter as its not about absolute costs but cost deviations in % if i have to pay higher prices for certain commodities there is a cost of living difference no matter how often you buy them. And even then a deviation +-10% I would be tempted to say you can have similar cost of living as you can influence by own behavior and it also vastly depends on your family situation. I'd say cost of living between US and UK is comparable.

Putting numbers in for myself based on that site for a monthly cost based on cardiff and miami.
Site puts Cardiff as 14% cheaper. based on my maths and usage it is actually more like 23% cheaper. and TBH the more i look down the list the prices are outrageous for alot of the things.

costings

They are not totally apart in costs.

 

[billt4sf]

At this point I think the tipping percentages are getting way out of line for almost services. Especially since most service is below average.

ha ha yeah that's another aspect of it, esp. in the US.

Apparently I am expected to tip someone for pouring my coffee and calling out my name. If I pay by credit card, there's even a handy reference for how much to pay someone for this "service": starting at 15% and going up to 30% !!

That is not a tip, that is social bribery. (Which I do pay because I know the wage laws about it.)

- Bill

 

[Centrals]

I am glad that I dive almost exclusive in SE Asia where tips is appreciated but not expected. BTW, Yankees are well known to be very generous on tips!
$2.00 per dive or $10.00 per day(liveaboard) is my usual standard.

 

[diver0008]

ha ha yeah that's another aspect of it, esp. in the US.

Apparently I am expected to tip someone for pouring my coffee and calling out my name. If I pay by credit card, there's even a handy reference for how much to pay someone for this "service": starting at 15% and going up to 30% !!

That is not a tip, that is social bribery. (Which I do pay because I know the wage laws about it.)

- Bill

I had no idea that tipping was such a hot and acrimonious topic; interesting information in this thread.

I am in Canada, and it appears that tipping protocol is similiar to that in the US.

I would never tip for counter service, as in with a coffee, or at a drive-through. Curious though how many do.

I think that if the tipping thing has gotten out of hand, it may have as much to do with the tippers as it does with the tippees and their working conditions (i.e.: wages).

Beyond exemplary service, do people feel obligated to tip because they are conscious in real-time of the lesser wages paid and are trying to do the right thing by supplementing it, or are they tipping for their own reasons of not appearing to be cheap? Or are they doing it because it has sunk in to be mandatory?

 

[J322Y]

And this is exactly where the system ONLY AND EXCLUSIVELY work in the favor of the business owner! Not in favor of the employee because he has an unreliable source of income, not the customer because he gets LIED at in terms of a upfront, fair, honest pricing.




That being said I'am the last person who does not gratuities if great service was provided and this is what it should be.

On top I sense two other issues.
One is the general assumption of US based guests that this is how it works elsewhere in the world as well, in the US they expect everyone else to adjust to their system but they refuse to educate themselves about what is customary elsewhere in the world, 15-20% of trip cost in Indonesia x 16 guest divided by 16 crew on a one week trip is more than the guys monthly salary...
On a recent trip, the trip pre information suggested 10-15% of trip price, the discussion among the guest what might be appropriate started at around 200$, quickly someone suggested 300$ until at the end someone said he'd put in 400$. At the last day everyone had an envelope with name written on and a letter on his cabin suggesting 15-20% tip to be given to the captain. There you go you had a tip bidding war going on on the boat topping out at around 25% of the trip price and the pressure of the named envelope to be handed in. And business owners know that ad they abuse it.
The crew was great no doubt and they deserved a nice tip but suggesting 15-20% is not gratuities its a dishonest price and lying towards the customer.
That being said if a business would advertise with fair and upfront cost and wages I'd pay the premium and still give a tip if great service was provided. But as in terms of pricing in the US a) customers with their swipe the credit card mentality do want to be lied at about prices and b) law usually works mostly only for those on the top barely for the end of the food chain...

I understand where you're coming from, but I think you're getting part of this wrong. I believe most business owners would also rather do away with tipping as a major portion of the staff's income. It's just simpler to manage people who know what they're earning. As a former restaurant manager in the US I speak from experience. There is constant tension involved when tips are involved as primary income. Fights are common over which stations waiters are assigned, which guests are seated with them, etc. It's a pain.

I also don't believe the business owners are getting some type of break because the employees are earning tips. If tips weren't part of the system, then the employees would clearly need to be paid a higher salary, but to make up the difference the owners would have no choice but to raise prices. Either way, a similar amount of money must be collected for all to thrive. In other words, no one is getting rich due to the American system of tipping; you're going to pay one way or another. (high tips + low wages, or small tips + higher wages) There's no way around this math. Having said all of that, I agree that it would be better/simpler with limited tipping.

Besides having managed waiters, I also worked as one for 6 - 7 years. It's not pleasant wondering if you're coming to work for almost nothing some days, or watching as DanielRJones gets seated in your station.

I wish I had a simple solution to this situation. Maybe it will evolve over time.

*Before posting, I did a quick search on the history of tipping. Surprise, it started in jolly old England!

Below is a paragraph from a brief article that is very interesting. The quote seems to support what I said, and the article from Business Insider is worth a quick read:

"The American system of tipping is awkward for all parties involved," Meyer, who owns well-known New York City-based restaurants such as Gramercy Tavern, Blue Smoke, and Union Square Cafe, wrote in a newsletter. "Restaurant patrons are expected to have the expertise to motivate and properly remunerate service professionals; servers are expected to please up to 1,000 different employers (for most of us, one boss is enough!); and restaurateurs surrender their use of compensation as an appropriate tool to reward merit and promote excellence."

SOURCE

 

[TMHeimer]

In restaurants my wife is in charge of paying the bill and tipping. I hate the whole mess. Then there's where you're with another couple or alone in a small group and forget to ask for separate bills. Then try to figure out in your heads who's meal cost what and who should contribute what to the total tip amount. Then someone says "its on me" so you have to write down that you owe this guy a meal the next time you meet, like 3 months from now. Man, I HATE all that silliness. That's why I do a straight $10 per tank.

 

[Clark Fletcher]

More generally, though, systems don't change unless people want them to. It's hard to change any system, but maybe over time it can be changed if enough people are in favor of it.

Absolutely correct. And, until we take those complaints directly to the folks that matter (in this case the dive ops), nothing will change.

There is a great deal of social pressure in the US to tip. It's been around so long and is so ingrained in our culture, it would be difficult at best to change. And, even though tipping isn't technically mandatory (yet), when restaurants put the amounts for different tip percentages at the bottom of the bill, it makes it seem mandatory. And, when restaurants automatically add a tip for large groups, it actually is mandatory.

A lot of this has to do with the minimum wage laws here in the US (IMHO). Most folks, including most business owners, don't understand that the minimum wage in the US was never intended to allow someone to sustain a living making that wage. It was originally put into place to keep businesses from turning children into slave labor. Unfortunately, many businesses have seen it as an excuse to pay a meager wage. In my opinion, it's one of the reasons tipping has become almost necessary. It's also the reason that I generally tip very well. Having waited tables many years ago while I was in college, I became brutally aware of the reality that tips were important for me to be able to make ends meet.

So, there are two options as I see it. We either pay folks a decent wage that they can rely on to sustain a living OR we make tipping mandatory with a fixed percentage for the tip. If we choose the former, then tipping becomes completely unnecessary. If we choose the later, then it becomes a fixed cost and should be included in the bill.

Just my opinion.

 

[billt4sf]

So, there are two options as I see it. We either pay folks a decent wage that they can rely on to sustain a living OR we make tipping mandatory with a fixed percentage for the tip. If we choose the former, then tipping becomes completely unnecessary. If we choose the later, then it becomes a fixed cost and should be included in the bill.

I could not agree more, Clark! --with your entire post.

At the same time, I'm pretty sure what is going to happen - nothing. The system will continue to evolve (decay) as it has been doing, and the American large tip custom will be coming to you, wherever you may be.

I hope I am wrong...

- Bill