Two missing on submerged Great Wall - China
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alewar
Contributor
IDK - I mean if it turns out that diver error is likely involved, I can see that some of that zero to hero vs. longer to get there training wise speculation or GUE vs. the rest opinionating will go on. But did I miss something? Are we at that stage? Or are there still other "possibilities" of causes that were raised and that really are not yet excluded? Like they might have been affected by electro fishing...???
Edit: I mean the quality in training etc. opinionating is actually quite interesting... and there is a place for it - or?
Edit: I mean the quality in training etc. opinionating is actually quite interesting... and there is a place for it - or?
alewar
Contributor
Not sure I follow.
I don't have the foggiest idea what happened. I am curious to learn what happened. We may not ever, I understand that. As far as how a diver could be affected by electrofishing if done with 2 car batteries? Pureley DC at 12V, maybe not much effect at all. Don't know. Don't know if it was done and if so how so and by what means. Could a converter have been used, a coil, a generator? No idea. Don't have place, time, test-subject or interest to experiment what could be done and if I or somebody diligently cataloged all that it would have no bearing on if any such thing was done and how (but if I did, I am reasonably certain I could rig something deadlier than a dropped battery, so can others).
That news about what happened, if it comes, sort of has to come from that site...
That said, I find the other topic interesting. I thought of a zero to hero class and am hesitant about it. Not necessarily because of the zero to hero part, but because I simply (yet) don't have the time to dive enough to be safe as a tech diver. Learning it is one thing, doing it enough to be "mindfully automatic" doing it is another. Whether the learning part happened in one whoosh or over time likely has a bearing early on, but maybe less so after a good, high number of dives after the training that practices all the learned and well so. Of course if that latter part does not happen there are issues, as are if actual practise of the learned does not happen when cards are obtained in steps over time. The difference being that an instructor for a later class has opportunity to determine that there might be a lack of skills that should be there. The difference being there being a check on if maybe "enough" skill has been fortified...
Anyway I just don't see how having that discussion here in this forum thread, which I am now also guilty of...), interesting as is, is relevant to the incident. I mean seeing the divers training record and logbook might, but just stipulating stuff in the absence of that (or did I miss it)?
Question for CC divers... If fisherman were electrocuting fish and the divers were near by... is it possible it disrupted the electronics of the CC system? Causing the oxygen loop to fail?
Basking Ridge Diver
Contributor
I would expect f they saw computers or alerts disrupted they would go straight to bail out - no?
I still find that electrofishing theory really hard to believe. The guy must have been technically on top of both their heads same time and zapped them.
DC is very inefficient basically used by people wearing a car battery as a backpack two poles in their hand walking around the beach zapping small fish.
For larger setups, an impulse system which would have been strong enough to zapp them in maybe up to 6ft/2m depth would have been big on a boat with a generator and still would have had to be real close from what my impression is.
Check Youtube electrofishing its widely used in the scientific community to do fish counts but the setups are not exactly small.
Could be but
a) again the poles would have had to be very close and
b) that would not have had their loops go bad immediately unless maybe stuck open solenoid which they would have had figured real quick.
There is defiantly a problem with fishing in that lake! The bottom is basically covered with nets and lines so I would not take fishing totally out of the game.
The reason I pointed out zero to hero training is they are, especially in Chinese media called very experienced, top experts, which in the very young, fast developing Chinese scuba industry microcosmos might be true, but compared to some of those around the world who have been diving for decades, they are rather baby divers. And don't get me wrong on that! I do not want to be mean, they were definitely good divers, and they definitely had some great training.
But put it in context with some of them went from Try Scuba to Cave 2, plus various side track training like CCR within <=5 years while having jobs that support their activities and a family... And you don't have a lot of local diving opportunities in China.
And just as I had seen it coming... Chinese officials will put it on some illegal / unlawful action as per this article the blaming is already going on
DC is very inefficient basically used by people wearing a car battery as a backpack two poles in their hand walking around the beach zapping small fish.
For larger setups, an impulse system which would have been strong enough to zapp them in maybe up to 6ft/2m depth would have been big on a boat with a generator and still would have had to be real close from what my impression is.
Check Youtube electrofishing its widely used in the scientific community to do fish counts but the setups are not exactly small.
Could be but
a) again the poles would have had to be very close and
b) that would not have had their loops go bad immediately unless maybe stuck open solenoid which they would have had figured real quick.
There is defiantly a problem with fishing in that lake! The bottom is basically covered with nets and lines so I would not take fishing totally out of the game.
The reason I pointed out zero to hero training is they are, especially in Chinese media called very experienced, top experts, which in the very young, fast developing Chinese scuba industry microcosmos might be true, but compared to some of those around the world who have been diving for decades, they are rather baby divers. And don't get me wrong on that! I do not want to be mean, they were definitely good divers, and they definitely had some great training.
But put it in context with some of them went from Try Scuba to Cave 2, plus various side track training like CCR within <=5 years while having jobs that support their activities and a family... And you don't have a lot of local diving opportunities in China.
And just as I had seen it coming... Chinese officials will put it on some illegal / unlawful action as per this article the blaming is already going on
"Local police have not yet revealed any information on their investigations. The actual cause of death will be confirmed during an autopsy. In the meantime, netizens and diving professionals are now arguing about whether the two divers were qualified to conduct the survey and mapping mission.
An officer from the Hebei Bureau of Geo Information told Red Star News that, according to China's Surveying and Mapping Law, underwater surveys require special qualifications and applications, as it is illegal to map the Great Wall without approval from relevant organs.
Some netizens are also arguing that GUE, as a "foreign organization," are responsible for their "illegal activities" in China, including the deaths of the two divers.
But others say it is normal for Chinese divers to possess international certificates as diving has only just entered China in the past decade. The team is no more than a private diving club, whose members have certificates from the same organization. GUE has not responded to media inquiries so far."
The Shanghai based GUE instructor who according to several articles is the person who brought up the electrofishing theory now has a imminent interest finding someone elses' wrongful doing.An officer from the Hebei Bureau of Geo Information told Red Star News that, according to China's Surveying and Mapping Law, underwater surveys require special qualifications and applications, as it is illegal to map the Great Wall without approval from relevant organs.
Some netizens are also arguing that GUE, as a "foreign organization," are responsible for their "illegal activities" in China, including the deaths of the two divers.
But others say it is normal for Chinese divers to possess international certificates as diving has only just entered China in the past decade. The team is no more than a private diving club, whose members have certificates from the same organization. GUE has not responded to media inquiries so far."
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well 50m very low viz, cold, on a ccr, in a lake covered in fishing nets isn't really just a 50m dive... and everyone can judge themselves, if jumping from course to course is really what gives you the experience... Think about what amount of course time they must have spent in a relative short amount of time, Fundamentals, Tech 1, Tec 2, Cave 1, Cave 2, CCR classes, they weren't scuba professional with nothing else to do, rather an investment banker, and a genetic scientist, translator and mom...
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